Monday, November 24, 2008

The God who is here

It is funny to think about my last post, in an ironic sort of way that is. I was being grateful for a simple bowl of oatmeal during what I perceived to be a difficult time. I didn't know that I was getting ready to go into a more difficult time!

So, now, especially in this American season of Thanksgiving, I am trying to develop an even more grateful heart during an more difficult time, both in my own family and in families of those dear to me. When I read this Tozer quote this morning, it struck me as it always does, like an arrow through the heart.

"Every man is as close to God as he wants to be; he is as holy and as full of the Spirit as he wills to be...."


When I wonder what in the world is going on in my life and wonder where God is in my own personal circumstances, when I question whether He is even paying attention, I find that they answer is yes, He is right where He has always been. He is holding me, walking through it with me!

Spiritual Warfare and Sin: Mediocre Christianity

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. --Romans 6:12-13

It is disheartening to those who care, and surely a great grief to the Spirit, to see how many Christians are content to settle for less than the best. Personally I have for years carried a burden of sorrow as I have moved among evangelical Christians who somewhere in their past have managed to strike a base compromise with their heart's holier longings and have settled down to a lukewarm, mediocre kind of Christianity utterly unworthy of themselves and of the Lord they claim to serve. And such are found everywhere....

Every man is as close to God as he wants to be; he is as holy and as full of the Spirit as he wills to be....

Yet we must distinguish wanting from wishing. By "want" I mean wholehearted desire. Certainly there are many who wish they were holy or victorious or joyful but are not willing to meet God's conditions to obtain.


From, "That Incredible Christian", pg 64.

38 comments:

donsands said...

Jesus is the standard for us all. And yet who can even come close to living a life as Christ lived?

And though we can never live a sinless life as our Savior did, and never even live up to the degree He lived for His father, we can live in the same manner.
Jesus said, "You can do nothing without Me."
Surely He didn't mean we can't do things in this life. He meant we can do nothing spiritually pleasing to God without abiding in His Word, and in Him really.

I love to see the life of Peter in the Scriptures. What a powerful man of the Lord, and a true servant. But he even denied Jesus three times, and even cursed and swore that he didn't know Jesus.

The Lord told Peter he would do this before it happened. Amazing. Jesus knows how to allow His children to be tried, and at the same time keep us. This is for His glory, and for our good.

And it's never going to leave us, until Christ makes all things new, in heaven and in earth.

Thanks for such a good post to make me think and reflect a bit.
God bless you this Thanksgiving. Amen.

donsands said...

So to bring a short conclusion to my rambling: We can live in the same manner as Jesus, which is sacrificial love, but only through trusting Him, and abiding in His Word of grace, and understanding His Word through the Holy Spirit.

"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the LORD."

Litl-Luther said...

> Every man is as close to God as he wants to be; he is as holy and as full of the Spirit as he wills to be.

I agree with the above quote, and I believe it applies to believers and non-believers alike: Non-believers have no desire to be near God, and believers were exactly the same as they at one time, before God resurrected His people spiritually from the dead. But now we who've been made alive by God can actually desire to draw near to Him and want to be holy and be continually filled with His Spirit.

...though I suppose this also means that none of us really want to be as holy as God since no one ever reaches sinless perfection in this life.

We have so much to be thankful for.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Yes, Triston, we do. Sometimes I wonder if I dare to even desire to be holy - just because I'm afraid of the cricumstances God will have to allow in my life to burn off the dross. So - I suppose I'm just "wishing" that He would zap me so, not that I would have to "grow up". in the manner of a child becoming an adult, into holiness.

Maalie said...

> Surely He didn't mean we can't do things in this life. He meant...

Aha! So re-writing the Word of God, are we? As I have always said, the bible can mean anything you want it to...

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

No Maalie, of course he is not rewriting scripture. Read the whole sentence. My goodness, for an educated man, sometimes your reading skills worry me. Don is actually taking the text and applying to real life - which is what we are supposed to do. The Bible is not intended to be a "coffee table" book that is just dusted once a week. It is meant to be a practical tool to help us live a life pleasing to Christ.

Maalie said...

Halfmom, leaving aside your ad hominem, I disagree.

Donsands is clearly telling us what he thinks that Jesus meant. As far as my impoverished reading skills are able to perceive, that is rather different from what Jesus is purported to have said.

It is all a matter of personal interpretation, and it seems to me that people interpret it as they see fit. In other words, how they want to.

donsands said...

Maalie,
The context of Jesus' talk with His disciples in John 15 is bearing spiritual fruit in this life. The fruit is love, peace, joy, patience, righteousness, gentleness, kindness, godliness, and so on.
He is saying without Him we can't bear fruit which is pleasing to God.

However, in other portions of the Bible the Lord shows us that He is sovereign over all His creation, and He does grant us all that we have, and "in Him we live and move and have our being". So life itself is a gift from God.
But this is not what our Lord was saying at this particular time, if you do look at the whole context, as Susan said.

But we have to admit that the deeper truths of the Scriptures can be disagreed upon, but the pure and simple truths we find, when we leave them in their context, are simply that, pure and simple. Just as the Gospel itself is pure, and the truth of it has the highest of all simplicity: Jesus died on a Cross, and He rose from the dead on the third day.

lorenzothellama said...

Up to a point I agree with Maalie. I do feel it is possible to interpret the Bible as one wants.

If we are really going to follow the letter of the law we would all still be eating kosher food, not mixing our fibres, leaving part of our fields for the gleaners, priest not shaving etc. etc. etc.
I know the argument about Jesus coming to knock that on the head, but he didn't say that. He said he was come to fulfill the law, not to change a 'jot or tittle'.

It is so easy to cherry pick what you think applies to you. I do it all the time.

At the risk of being ridiculed by Maalie, I still hold that we are all on our own paths, not necessarily chosen by ourselves. Some are blessed with more brains than others to think and reason. Jesus talked in parables that were so obtuse sometimes, you can make what you like of them.

Scholars humph and harr about the 'right wedding clothes' and what a 'talent' really is, but at the end of the day some of the parables were ambiguous or downright contradictory, to other things Jesus said.

I made a comment on Bluecollar the other day which was promptly deleted. I said "there was too much theology and nitpicking going on. It was the sort of thing the Pharisees indulged in and really irritated Jesus. Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbour as yourself and leave the bickering to the Pharisees".

I realize this was an arrogant thing to say, but are the whys and wherefores really necessary?

Maalie said...

Come on Donsands, stop wriggling!

In one sentence you say: "He didn't mean..."

and in the next you say: "He meant..."

If that is not making it mean what you want to, I don't know what is!!!

Litl-Luther said...

One thing all Christians agree on, because it is so clear in Scripture and not open to interpretation, is that Jesus literally died; He literally rose from the dead, and true life is found only in Him.

No wriggling going on here. This is solid ground!

BTW: There is no problem with Christians like Don, Ted, etc, trying to honestly understand what Scriptures says, and coming to different conclusions on secondary issues. When we handle the Word of God with pure motives, trying to understand it, God is pleased. And there will be many issues we can come to different conclusions on. In fact, perhaps God meant it that way, so that His Word would be useful and helpful in all situations. But then there are critical issues like "salvation in Christ", and there is no other interpretation then the one that every Christian confesses: Jesus is the only Savior and Lord. Salvation is available in Him alone.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Maalie, what HTML tag do you use for a hyperlink?

Litl-Luther said...

Lorenzo wrote:
"Love the Lord thy God and thy neighbour as yourself and leave the bickering to the Pharisees."

There is a lot of wisdom in your words, Lorenzo, since Loving God and loving our neighbor are the greatest commandments. Therefore, they should take precedence. But at the same time trying to understand Scripture is a good thing and Jesus criticized the Sadducees and even a Pharisee (Nicodemus) for not understanding the Scriptures well enough

Jesus answered and said to them [the Sadducees], “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. (Matt. 22:29)

Jesus answered and said to him [Nicodemus], “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? ; John 3:10).

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

According to Maalie's Wikipedia hyperlink, "an ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."

So Maalie, I actually think you are the one using the ad hominem argument. We are discussing living a holy life. Rather than entering that discussion, you are trying to derail the conversation by accusing us of cherry picking or reinterpreting.

lorenzothellama said...

Actually Susan, it was me that mentioned the cherry picking, not Maalie.

I so often hear phrases like 'God wants' 'God is pleases' etc. No one actually knows what God wants or whether He is pleased. He is unknowable.

Have anyone of you read that marvellous little book called 'The Cloud of Unknowing'? It was written by a monk during the middle ages. No one knows quite who he was, but they take the form of teaching a young monk. The elder monk was a mystic as are some of the greatest saints.

Some of the writing of the mystics are just so eyeopening, and I recommend Julian of Norwich's 'Revelations of Divine Love'. Try googling both these books and see what you thing.

Today's word is expus

lorenzothellama said...

This is a quite from The Cloud of Unknowing. I've just looked it up on Wikipedia.

"Our intense need to understand will always be a powerful stumbling block to our attempts to reach God in simple love [...] and must always be overcome. For if you do not overcome this need to understand, it will undermine your quest. It will replace the darkness which you have pierced to reach God with clear images of something which, however good, however beautiful, however Godlike, is not God."

Maalie said...

Halfmom: Rubbish! Your attack on my reading skills was a blatant ad hominem, the implication being that if can assert that I can't read, then my judgement can't be trusted either.

Is that how you respond to the referees of your manuscripts?

donsands said...

Maalie,

Do you think it's important to look at the context?

donsands said...

"No one actually knows what God wants or whether He is pleased. He is unknowable."-llama

Sure you can please God. He desires that you please Him, and know Him.
That is what Christmas is all about.

Litl-Luther said...

It is possible to know God:
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20)

It is possible to please God:
"But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased." (Heb. 13:16)

"Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus." (1 Thes. 4:1)

Andrew said...

"Yet we must distinguish wanting from wishing. By "want" I mean wholehearted desire. Certainly there are many who wish they were holy or victorious or joyful but are not willing to meet God's conditions to obtain."

I recall learning in Andrew Murray's book With Christ in the School of Prayer that Jesus asked the blind beggar, "What will ye that I shall do unto you?" (Matthew 20:32 KJV). Murray stressed that the KJV and Greek show the blending not only of what we wish or want, but what we're willing to have happen. In prayer we only really ask--and therefore receive--if we will that it should happen.

Of course, I think that this is entirely the reason why perhaps our greatest prayer is for God to renew our wills so that we desire and love Him and what He loves!

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

I've heard of both books Llama dear but have read neither. They sound interesting. I do think though that scripture pretty clearly tells us a number of things that please God and a number that do not and what He expects of us. While I agree that we may never know Him in the sense that we know each other, for He is so much greater and higher than we can even imagine, I do think that the Holy Spirit and Scripture reveal things about Him such as can be known - and there are many, many of those things. So, we have pretty solid footing, when we look at the whole of scripture in context, for knowing God, for knowing what will please Him and what will not.

No Maalie, I wasn't actually attacking your reading skills; I am sure they are quite formitable. I was trying to, in tongue in cheek fashion, draw your attention to the fact that you were taking Don's comments out of context - both the context in which he was making the comment and the Biblical context to which he was referring. And yes, I do answer my reviewers that way sometimes when I can tell they haven't even bothered to read what I wrote - grant reviewers too for that matter. And then I go back and try to find a more tactful way of saying, "what were you thinking - did you even read what I wrote??" Not always easy to do with a reviewer who holds the life of your manuscript or grant in his silly hands! However, I did assume that this was between/among friends so that I might poke fun at you a bit (as in tickle - I do hope that's not one of those terms that doesn't do well between American and British English!) rather than be so dead serious all the time.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Drew, that's exactly one of the reason that, "it is God who works in you to will and to do His good pleasure" means so much to me. I'm afraid that left alone I wouldn't even manage to pray that, even though I most certainly should!

Ted M. Gossard said...

Good point from Tozer.

Surely God is beyond us, yet in Jesus God has made himself known to us. The gospel is clear. I say an "AMEN" to all the brothers and sister in Jesus here.

As Scripture says, "Draw near to God, and God will draw near to us." etc., in James. God in Jesus takes our slightest sincere movement in faith his direction, quite seriously, and is easily "moved" by that (in more ways than one). Though only in God's Son is God satisfied. But God will be satisfied in the end in Jesus, as he makes all things new beginning in us and out from us, even now- in Jesus.

Yes, while I believe Romans 7 is speaking to humankind in Adam under the law, both Jews and Gentiles- that in such a state one cannot please God, I believe Romans 6 states that through our identity with Christ in baptism- by faith- that we can live lives pleasing to God. But as Romans 6 makes it clear, that's not automatic! It says, we're not under the law, but under grace. Therefore we're not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies, etc. So it's so true that we are as close to God as we want to be. And it's dangerous and not good to drift and get far away (though God is faithful always, and in his love will discipline his children).

Good thoughts by everyone here. And nice discussion.

Maalie said...

Happy Thanksgivimg Halfmom, to you and your family!

lorenzothellama said...

Happy Thanksgiving Susan.

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Happy Thanksgiving Lorenzo and Maalie - I wish you were here. We'd fill you with turkey and pumpkin pie - well, that is if I leave my morning tea and get off the couch and go bake!!

Litl-Luther said...

* Thankful to the Brits of long ago. If it were not for them, the Calvinists would not have fled England to the Americas so they could worship God freely.

* Thankful for the American Indians' hospitality (In hindsight, I'm sure they would have let all those Pilgrims stare!)

* And most of all, thankful to God for making all this happen.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!

lorenzothellama said...

I'll pass on the turkey Susan. I'm a veggie!

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Oops, sorry Llama dear - and I knew that! We would just have filled you up with sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes with butter, green beans, pumpkin and apple and cherry pies...........

hummmm, I think I'm getting hungry again!

Maalie said...

You can throw a turkey leg my way please...

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

here it comes Maalie - catch! you'll love it because it was delicious!! better I might add than the pumpkin pie I made Drew!

Litl-Luther said...

The last time we were Stateside we went to the renaissance festival in Maryland. They were selling turkey legs at it. Boy they were good!

Ted M. Gossard said...

Here's my quote of the week I posted a bit ago on my blog. I like Welch's thought that hope is a practice, and really all he's saying in this quote. I was trying to think of a quote on hope, since this is the first Sunday of Advent in which I was reminded this morning, that the first candle lit symbolizes our hope in Jesus.

(I hope this isn't too unrelated to the post, but is in fact related, which of course in some way it is, as all things are- :)!)

"While our culture elevates riches and health, hope is one of the most coveted spiritual possessions. You get it by asking for it and practicing it. You practice it by remembering and meditating on God's story."

Edward T. Welch, Depression: A Stubborn Darkness, p. 251

Ted M. Gossard said...

Get a load of this from one of my friends who works at the same place I do. A naturalist. And a great video from the UK at the end. Wow, those starlings!

I somehow think this is related to this post, certainly the title anyhow!

Halfmom, AKA, Susan said...

Ted, I think the quote from Welch is very appropriate. Hope can be starved to death if you choose to - by either neglect of the things one knows to be true or by chronic exposure, by choice, to the things one knows not to be right or pure - or lovely or true or excellent....

Ted M. Gossard said...

Good point on that, Susan. So very true.

Thanks.

Every Square Inch said...

I like Tozer. Sadly, my problem is I often have little desire for holiness...