I thought this particular quote from St. Augustine of particular interest since so many of the comments on the last blog posting had to do with faith.
“Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.”
It surely is true of faith in Christ. While I do not see Him with my physical eyes, I do believe - and the reward of this faith is that I see Him with my spirit in a way that more than overcomes any doubts that He exists and is who He said He was - and therefore is - and will always be.
For I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes...
60 comments:
Amen, and amen!!!
Well worded, Susan (helpful), both by you and Augustine. And I concur wholeheartedly.
I like this post also! Amen! And Ted's comment can not be improved upon!
"..for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory". 1 Peter 1:8-9
Nice quote and thoughts Susan. Thanks. Made me think of these words from Simon Peter the fisherman/Apostle.
It reminds me of the faith bridge in Indiana Jones.
i have faith in science
Yes Craver - it is very much like that - great illustration!
Welcome Deb - it's good to see you here!!
How blessed you are Ted, to have a godly wife who believes her husband’s words cannot be improved upon! :)
Amen! Great post! Great words!!
“For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.” (1Cor. 13:12a) I can not wait until we see our Lord face-to-face, whom we have not yet seen but in whom we believe. What a glorious day that will be!
Interesting analogy Craver from the Indiana Jones flick.
I like the analogy of a plane with both engines on fire, but the passengers onboard do not look out the window to see the fiery death that surely awaits them. However, one passenger onboard grabs a hold of a parachute and clings to it for his very life. He leaps from the plane and is carried to safety. Jesus is that parachute. The passengers oblivious to the fiery destruction are the people of this world, carrying on with life without a care. And it is the genuine Christian who clings to the parachute for his life.
oh I dunno, I would not bother with the parachute, I give it to someone who did not have one.....
That's what we're trying to do, Simon: Give Jesus to those who do not have Him. You sound like an evangelist. Fortunately He's provided enough parachutes for all the passengers.
Wow, This blog is really rich this morning. Susan started a garden and everyone came to put something good in it! That includes you, too, Simon!
Lt'l Luther, My wife is gracious, for sure. After all, she put up with me all these years yet still loves me. It has to be a God-thing!
Hi girl. One of my pagan professors once said, "No man can call himself educated who has not read Augustine." He was speaking of Augustine's "Confessions".
Over the years I have never had any reason to doubt the wisdom of that prof.
Thanks for you visit Mart - God certainly blessed us all when people took to writing things down, didn't He?
Litl-Luther, I like the Indie illustration, because he believes and then confirms his belief by acting upon them. (Unfortunately though, in the movie, I thought he was surprised that it worked.)
Your plane analogy is excellent. I like it for a couple of reasons. One... some people on the plane are blissfully unaware of their imminent demise. Ain't that the truth!
Two... is that it is not enough to be aware that the plane is going down, and being aware of the presence of parachutes... true faith goes beyond mere intellectual assent and can be discerned by what we do with that knowledge.
Didn't the apostle Paul also say something like Simon?
Gosh you do start lively debates in your comments section Susan! (your last post)
How is ya'all doin?
:)
Evanelist! ahahah! you made me laugh this morning Luther! it has been said before but many years ago.
Anyhow- on a different note hereis an interesting Stat:-
Wall street paid 33 billion dollars in bonuses to executives last financial year..
the TOTAL aid package to Africa was 27 Billion.......
Wacko world led by wackos!
"Wacko world led by wackos!"
Just plan old greed.
Jesus said, "Beware of greed".
I guess I had always taken that quote to mean that one day we will see fully what we only now believe (a la 1 Corinthians 13:12). We believe in the kingdom of God, the renewal of all things, the resurrection, freedom from sin and death, and unbroken fellowship with God--and one day we shall have it.
Andrew,
I believe you are right. What we can begin now by faith, through His Word, will one day become a visible, relational reality. I would just add this regarding the 1 Cor. 13:12 text:
Gnosis = “to know”
Epignosis = “to intently” (not exhaustively)
I think it is important to realize that “to know fully” does not mean to know exhaustively, as the infinite God cannot be known exhaustively (and I know you are aware of this). This is why Heaven could never become boring: Our knowledge of God will ever increase. We will have new and deeper realizations of who God is which will ever give us more reasons to praise Him.
Craver,
You are right. Paul did say something similar to Simon:
"I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites..." (Rom. 9:1-4)
Moses said something similar as well. I am blown away and humbled by such love for people.
Simon,
I agree with you. We invest way too much into the rich. I honestly don't think they should bailout Wallstreet with the 700 billion the government is talking about giving. Between that and the (I believe) more than a trillion dollars they have spent in Iraq so far, much good could have been done in the world in much more worthy causes.
hey susan,
thanks for saying hello on the blog. i ended up nixing the post for fear that my son's teacher would come back to haunt me.
hope you are well. thanks for your insights.
Thanks for the compliment, Litl-Luther.
While we both were at Prairie Bible Inst., i had prayed and told God that if He wanted me to get married; it would have to be to someone 100% sold out to God-a man after God's own heart.
That is definitely what i have in Ted.
Honey, You know I really don't deserve that. Though maybe it's just the eyes the Lord in grace gives you. And I DON'T deserve you; the Lord's grace, again!
(does remind me of the post, God gives us to see by faith what he wants and is bringing into being in the new creation in Jesus)
sweets, i had and have a great relationship with the Lord who would not give me something different than i had asked of Him if it would also be in line with His will. He is full of compassion, mercy and loving kindness.
And i know what i had and have seen in and of you.
Ted and Deb,
Do you guys want to get a room?
Oh wait a minute. You already have one! :-)
Great little quote. Maybe the best quotes are generally brief, eh?
Tead and Deb! geez you guys are getting runcible!
It seems awfully quite in the bloggist-sphere. I guess the other bloggers, besides Simon and I, we're trying to let Ted and Deb be alone.
How do you like my new blog pic? I think it depicts well my inner self.
Thanks, Simon.
Who's dat, Triston?
Triston - the picture looks like something out of Oliver Twist grows up!
Yep, it is quiet - Maalie and Lorenzo are both out of the country - theirs that is! Simon is having to hold up for all three of them!
The silence is deafening. So I thought I would throw something off the wall out there:
‘Life in Lubbock, Texas, taught me two things: One is that God loves you and you're going to burn in hell. The other is that sex is the most awful, filthy thing on earth and you should save it for someone you love.' – Butch Hancock.
Is this the type of absurd impression that Christians leave with unbelievers? I think often it probably is. Personally, I do not use the same-old-four-spiritual-laws line that most Christians give when speaking with non-Christians: “God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life.”
This approach seems a bit deceptive to me in light of John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
God’s wrath, not His love, continually abides upon all who do not place their faith in Jesus Christ.
But what do you think?
What a bizarre quote. Why would Butch Hancock say such a thing?
Triston, I like the way you're thinking, though. I have a friend who says "God loves you and offers a wonderful plan for your life." He explains general grace and how the offer is made for any who would accept it, though not all do. It made it a little less unrealistic.
I prefer to tell salvation as God's story, rather than what sounds to me like a sales pitch that reinforces a "what's in it for me" attitude.
Good thoughts Craver.
The consumer-mindedness in America should be kept out of our evangelism. Many make God look like this weak Being who is lonely and unable to save, and He's just hoping people will give Him a little of their attention. I prefer the Jonathan Edwards "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" approach.
Unfortunately, the misconception sometimes is that He is angry, angry, angry or that he is love, love, love, but I think Edwards understood well that God is holy, holy, holy. That is a good starting place for us as we try to know Him.
Amen Craver!!
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!” (Isaiah 6:3)
They do not rest day or night, saying:
“Holy, holy, holy,
Lord God Almighty,
Who was and is and is to come!”
(Revelation 4:8)
Well said Craver, well said!
Hey! I like that little saying!
Have a nice weekend my little bunny wunny
My little thought on this, folks,
God is holy and God is love (1 John).
As to God's wrath abiding on sinners, yes in terms of judgment. We're all sinners and therefore under God's wrath as in judgment. Yet God loves sinners, if I read John 3:16 correctly.
The anger or wrath of God against all sin was taken by himself in the person of his Son, Jesus, when he took our place in dying for our sins, dying for us. In that God's wrath/judgment is satisfied.
But for those who reject that sacrifice, they reject this gift of God and therefore retain the wrath/judgment of God on themselves. The price they pay.
God loves all and is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they should repent and live.
So yes, God is holy, but God is love. And I see God as holy love. Others see holiness as his basic attribute. Holiness includes otherness, but you can't dissect one part of who God is from another part. I believe all is an expression of his love, of his Trinitarian love of the mutual indwelling of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Including his just wrath. (Or all is an expression of his holiness, as well, including his love, of course).
One other word I want to add to my comment: GRACE. Grace brings the two: God's holiness and love together, in Jesus. Through his incarnation, death and resurrection.
We're ALL in need of it. We all fall short of God's glory and we're all sinners since we sin. So God's holiness and his love come together, and the result is God's grace, or gift to us in Jesus, for us who are sinners and yet accepted by God through faith in Jesus ("accepted in the Beloved"). As we accept God's just sentence against ourselves and our sin and accept by faith God's declaration of forgiveness in his Son, putting our faith in Jesus, we receive the gift of God's love in his Son.
...and God's holiness and love coming together in Jesus equals GRACE. Grace meaning a gift we neither can deserve or earn. Nothing we can do at all,of course, but receive that gift by faith.
I believe we must begin with creation in Genesis 1 and 2, not the fall in Genesis 3. People need to see not only that they're fallen and have fell due to sin. They also must see that they are created by God and the setting for that so they can see what they've fallen from. Because in the new creation in Jesus that is restored and more. That ought to be factored in when evangelizing people today.
So it's not just about God's wrath against sin, but about God's love and holiness coming together to bring God's GRACE, in Jesus.
This is only part of my problem with the "sinners in the hands of an angry God" approach, not to say there's no truth there, only not the whole truth in itself (though if I've read that sermon even just in part, it was long ago).
Ted,
It may be true that John 3:16 teaches that God loves sinners. Yet, not only from John 3:36 but other texts as well, it can be shown that God hates sinners.
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5)
Brother, one thing I would point out is you are using 2 Peter 3:9 out of context: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
This is a promise to the church. It has nothing to do with unbelievers. I know so many people use this verse and apply it to all people, but they are mistaken. If you read this text in the context, Peter is writing to the church and this promise is to the Church. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.
Also, I think you are on very shaky theological ground if you actually believe God has been propitiated on behalf of every person. If He is no longer angry with their sin, He would be unjust to judge them. Propitiation can only be applied to the people of God. I know this can get us into the L in the TULIP debate, and I'm not trying to bring us there. But God would be unjust to judge people if He has truly been satisfied for their sin. The only way that would work was if universalism were true--that all will eventually be saved, but we know that is not the case.
I don't mean to take anything away from the love of God. The problem is that all people (including myself) have an unsanctified perspective. When I talk to people about God's love, almost everyone seems to think that they're going to be fine, because of God's generous love.
God's love, and His wrath are attributes which He compromises at His own choosing. Except for legal imputation at the cross, God's holiness has never been compromised. At the cross, Jesus (who knew no sin) became sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of Christ. Other than that, I know of no other time when God was not 100% full-on holy.
It is helpful for each person to hear about, and come to terms with the holiness of God. I like it very much as a foundation for knowing God. His wrath seems to make better sense, and believe me, His love is ever so much sweeter, knowing that it comes from a God who is holy, holy, holy.
Hi Ted,
It may be true that John 3:16 teaches that God loves sinners. Yet, not only from John 3:36 but other texts as well, it can be shown that God hates sinners.
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity." (Psalm 5:5)
Brother, one thing I would point out is you are using 2 Peter 3:9 out of context: "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."
This is a promise to the church. It has nothing to do with unbelievers. I know so many people use this verse and apply it to all people, but they are mistaken. If you read this text in the context, Peter is writing to the church, and this promise is to the Church. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.
Also, I think you are on very shaky theological ground if you actually believe God has been propitiated on behalf of every person. If He is no longer angry with their sin, He would be unjust to judge them. Propitiation can only be applied to the people of God. I know this can get us into the L in the TULIP debate, and I'm not trying to bring us there. But God would be unjust to judge people if He has truly been satisfied for their sin. The only way that would work was if universalism were true--that all will eventually be saved, but we know that is not the case.
All comments must be approved now before being posted? That's new.
Dear anonymous - please read back through the actual posts and you will find the reason for comment enabling on older posts (even if the "older post" is the most recent one).
Also, please leave your name. Although I do allow people to leave comments under "anon" so that not all need to have an actual blog account, I do not permit actual anonymous comments. If you're not willing to leave a name and own up to your own opinions, please don't participate.
LLuther - were you deliberately repeating yourself - decided you hadn't phrased things exactly the way you wanted? The two comments are different days but seem to have very much the same comment and wording - however, I didn't want to delete one without you choosing which one.
Interesting comments/conversation. I need to think through whether I agree with you or not, especially about the comment on the 2Peter passage.
Craver,
Brother, God's holiness was not at all compromised at the cross. Never ever is God's holiness compromised, and especially there. God took upon himself and so met all the demands of his holiness there, and so both his holiness and love were fully exercised and satisfied at the cross. In fact the cross of Jesus is the greatest act of both God's holiness and love.
People need to see both, because frankly, Christians can be among the most ungracious people anywhere (read Yancey's "What's So Amazing About Grace" as that speaks to this). Jesus was full of grace and truth, and we must reflect him.
You know all that, brother, and I sound like I'm trying to teach you, which I don't want to do. But bear with me, as a response from just a fallible brother in Jesus.
Ltl Luther,
Your thought on 2 Peter might be true if taken out of context both of the book itself as well as the rest of Scripture. But I read it completely differently, as 2 Peter calls professing Christians to make their calling and election sure.
If God hates sinners as you say, then that means he hates all sinners, period. Of course if God hates all sinners, how could he at the same time love any sinner? Of course you'll say it's all about his electing love. God just loves certain sinners, but hates others. That reflects Romans 9-11, which I believe is simply addressing a wrong attitude Israel had, and potentially we Gentiles can have as well. That somehow God owes us something and we know better than him. But in the end we read there that God has bound all people to disobedience, that he might have mercy on them all (end of Rom 11).
An important passage in this is 2 Corinthians 5 which says that God has reconciled the world to himself in Christ and no longer holds people's trespasses/sins against them. But still though God has done that, the message which must be proclaimed is that each person must be reconciled to God. God has taken care of the sin problem and no longer holds anyone's sin against them because of what Christ has done, at least potentially so. But people must be reconciled to God, they must respond to the message with faith.
If God is an angry god who hates anyone, it sure doesn't come across that way in Jesus Christ. We see God most clearly in Jesus I take it. Did he hate everyone who was a sinner? What was his heart toward sinners and towards Jerusalem which rejected him? He wept and compared himself to a hen wanting to put the chicks under her wings, but they were not willing!
I made two comments on GRACE earlier, because I thought you, Susan had decided not to post the first one for your own wise reasons. So I tried again.
Why does mercy triumph over judgment (James)? Due to God's grace in Jesus, I believe. Grace is so key here, and God's love and care are expressed to all in common grace (sunshine and rain on just and unjust), and God's offer of grace to all in the good news in Jesus.
"God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked but that they should repent and live." Ted
Amen.
And God owes no man mercy, He has mercy on whom He wills. If God wanted, He could save everyone. Or He could keep those who are born and will never believe, from ever being born.
God's true essence is beyond our comprehension, yet we can know distinct things about God.
This is always one of those theological discussions that can help us grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord, or cause strife.
I have learned a lot from discussions of this subject, and have grown in understanding, and yet now I see God in His infiniteness a little better, and so actually know less about Him.
Romans 11:33,36
No Ted, I didn't remove any comments and my comment enabling box shows that everything that was submitted has been published. So, I'm not sure what happened to your comment(s), sorry.
"Never ever is God's holiness compromised, and especially there."
I think what Craver is saying Ted, is that Jesus was made a curse. He was cursed for us, the children of wrath, who were cursed, and deserved to be cursed by a holy God.
We deserve to be punished and crushed under the white hot wrath of a holy God, but this holy God became cursed for us, His elect, and Jesus drank the cup of His Father; every drop. So the wrath stored up for my sin, which are countless, has been endured by Christ, and He paid for all my sins. He suffered my just condemnation for me, and for all His elect.
Jesus came to seek, and to save His lost sheep. he died for His sheep, and His sheep will come to their Shepherd when He calls them home. We surely will respond to His voice, because He said we shall in John chapter 10.
If I misrepresented you Craver, I'm sorry.
Yes Susan,
You should look into my interpretation of the 2 Peter 3:9 passage, because honestly, it is the only contextually faithful interpretation of the passage.
And Ted,
Sorry to have to remove one explosive device from your arsenal, but your interpretation of 2 Peter is unfaithful to the context. …But don't worry, there are still other passages you can keep in your arsenal (1 Tim. 2:1-4 for example). Nevertheless you ARE being unfaithful to Scripture if you continue to apply 2 Peter 3:9 to unbelievers. It is NOT about them!! Even (Prof. Dave Shive, my worst adversary against anything to do with Calvinism agrees with me about the 2 Peter text. Just ask him! And he is one of the greatest anti-Calvinist scholars alive!).
It could not be more clear. How does 2 Peter open up? :
"To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Pet. 1:1).
Clearly this book is written to Christians. And then Peter tells US Christians that God is not willing that any of US should perish. It is an eternal security promise for believers. It has nothing to do with unbelievers. I'm really surprised you can't see it. I can only assume your bias is standing in the way because this is an incontrovertible text—though clearly abused by many in ignorance.
PS: You wrote: "If God hates sinners as you say..." Wait a minute Ted. All I did was quote Psalm 5:5. God is the one in His Word who says He hates sinners--not me. Take it up with Him!!
Don’s point is vital: “God owes no man mercy, He has mercy on whom He wills.”
Why don’t we just talk about the most offensive subject imaginable: babies and condemnation. Would it be “unjust” for God to judge infants and send them to Hell? No, it would not. Because imputation is true and real. Adam’s sin truly has been imputed to all human kind, and God would be just to judge even babies in the womb. In fact, perhaps He would be even more merciful to take them in infancy and not let them stack of decades of sin and rebellion before judging them and sending them to Hell. We cannot easily dismiss this idea because our whole Christian faith rests on imputation: the imputation of our sin to Christ and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to us. Imputation is real and men, babies, all are guilty before God.
Until you get to the place that you realize God is just to judge all people for their sins, you have not fully understood the Gospel of God’s GRACE.
“Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.” (Rom. 9:14-15)
Until you have understood this text, you have not understood adequately the tremendous grace God is showing you by not condemning you! You deserve to be damned! As do I! Many Christians go through their lives not realizing the magnitude of the mercy and grace God is giving them.
Ted, perhaps my phrasing was awkward. God has never generated unholiness, but at the cross there was a legal imputation of it. Jesus' took the blame for sin which he had not committed. My sin was laid upon him, and in that exchange, the righteousness that covers me is not my own, but Christ's.
The Lord has laid upon him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6
He became sin who knew no sin, that we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor. 5:21
I hope that makes better sense, my friend.
I still prefer holiness as a foundation for telling the good news. And trust me... I get to the happy parts about love, forgiveness and fellowship.
Oh and Ted, I hope I don't come across as adversarial with you. I respect you, Friend. We may disagree on certain theological points, but I'm still proud to call you brother.
Litl-Luther, you touch on one topic that I am very interested in. I am not 100% satisfied with the theology I have heard whether dying babies go to heaven. My blog's regular visitors might not be the best audience for such a discussion, but I would be interested to see someone take it up or email me on their opinion.
In my heart, I feel that I cannot provide the same comforting answers others give. It seems clear to me that the imputation of Adam's sin is universal, and everybody who does not repent and believe stands outside of God's saving grace.
The passage some use is verse 23 of 2nd Samuel where King David says of Bathsheba's dead baby, "I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." I think that statement could simply be interpreted to mean that David will eventually go to the grave, but the baby will not return to the land of the living.
Help!!!
Interesting, all the theology and stuff here. I did say that God took his wrath we deserve on himself in Jesus on the cross.
Interesting that the first and greatest commandment is to love God with all our being and doing, and that the second is to love our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus didn't say that the first commandment is to "Be holy, because I the Lord your God am holy," even though that's true and vitally important.
I take that as reflecting the reality that human beings are made in God's image and love is the highest expression of that image, or maybe one can say the highest expression of holiness. But love is expressed in many ways, including the punishment of the wicked in the end, for all who do not repent.
I really didn't want to say anything, as I consider debating on theology usually a waste of time and effort. It's about living this out in the world. But I know all of you involved in this conversation not only believe that, but do endeavor to practice it every bit as much as I do, and you may well do that better.
This is my last word on this thread.
Thanks Litl-Luther; I read those verses and your commentary. I'm still uncertain of what I would say about the salvation of infants, except that God is always good. I'd avoid telling anyone that their baby who just died has gone to heaven. There seems to be enough here for speculation, but just not enough for me to anchor my convictions.
Here's one of my favorite passages:
"Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them: but the disciples rebuked those who brought them. But Jesus saw, and He was greatly displeased and said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. ...And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them." Mark 10:13-16
Jesus taking in His arms, and blessing this children before His Father in heaven is such a tender and beautiful thing.
Good word Don, and perhaps this too is evidence for the salvation of babies.
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