I thought the following quote quite interesting in that it is a difficult time in my life, a time of chastisement as it were. Things aren't too pleasant at work, rather unsettling sometimes at home and definitely the past year or so at church has been a time of turmoil. So, it struck me quite profoundly that not only does one need to know how to Abide to get to the right end-point in the middle of a trial, one needs the trial to learn to Abide! For, with no threat, of tornado or severe storm, who runs to the basement as a place of shelter? With no threat of hurricane or tsunami, who retreats inland? So, I suppose if this is the way of blessing, of learning patience and humility that reflect the meekness and gentleness of Christ, so be it. I just wish I wasn't such a slow learner!
Andrew Murray, Abide in Christ, page 125
"O abide in Christ: the power of the flesh will be mortified, the impatience and self-will of the old nature be humbled, to make place for the meekness and gentleness of Christ. A believer may pass through much affliction and yet secure but little blessing from it all. Abiding in Christ is the secret of securing all that the Father meant the chastisement to bring us."
Andrew Murray, Abide in Christ, page 125
74 comments:
"So, it struck me quite profoundly that not only does one need to know how to Abide to get to the right end-point in the middle of a trial, one needs the trial to learn to Abide!"
Susan,
Your post is both challenging and encouraging and along with Andrew Murray's quote good to ponder, as well.
I find God working on me to help me learn to live and remain/abide in his love in Jesus, to abide in Jesus. I am a slow learner as well. It is really beyond me. But that's precisely why I have to learn to abide in Jesus.
And difficulties, trials and struggles beyond my own strength have helped me to realize my utter need in this direction. Discipline from God in my life, too, but also greatly encouraging to begin to know by faith and sense that this life is there for me.
I think in part it's a realization of our great ongoing need of God's work of salvation in Jesus as I posted of today. But also to really begin to know the deliverance and changes that this present tense salvation brings, in Jesus brings. (interesting to read the passage in John 15 in light of all this!)
gal 5:16!!!
Good quote. And good wisdom from your words as well.
Thanks for sharing.
Welcome Yipeng. Please say more about what you mean by Gal 5:16 so we make sure to understand clearly what you are trying to say to us.
The idea that there is no God, but rather some huge, random explosion caused our well ordered universe is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!
I just think gal 5:16 is a fine promise to claim...
...that as we put off evil and put on good, as we abide in Christ, as we walk in the Spirit... we are promised freedom! :)
Yipeng Yes, I see now what you were getting at. As we Abide in Christ, we will of course be walking in the Spirit and will therefore not sin.
Christians doing yoga? I just posted at my blog about it. Check it out and comment if you have time.
Thanks.
Triston
>but rather some huge, random explosion caused our well ordered universe is the stupidest thing I have ever heard!
Oh Lord, here we go again with the argument from personal incredulity!
Hello Susan, I'm back!!
If that Luther has been slagging off Christians doing yogo, he'll hear from me! And I hope you too Susan!
Lorenzo He's already heard from me by way of email - extensive email!
Apparently their yoga in Nepal has lots of demon worship in it and he wanted to make sure we weren't.
I thought about casting a spell on him and turning him into a frog, or maybe one of those beers he likes - but then I thought better of it. I figured Father Ann would be all over me!
Maalie I can't remember where, but he did ask an interesting question - something about some examples of where random disorder has been show, with input of energy, to come to order. At least I think that's what he was asking. All I could think of was the insane amount of energy I had to put into getting my boys to to make their room orderly!
but I do not want to be meek, nor humble, nor abide anywhere.....
See, I do not have difficulties, nor trials, nor struggles.
I am utterly content with what I have and who I am.
can i improve on it?
Yes.
Will I improve on it?
Yes.
Will I die content?
Yes.
Maalie:- surly now you should be convinced (after our conversation over Calvados):-
That a LITERAL mighty hand waved over the heavens and order was created out of caos?
That a LITERAL mighty hand broke the land mass into the continents about 6000 years ago.
That a LITERAL mighty hand caused the flood from which ALL living creatures were saved in a boat built by Noah.
That plans for the ark were given to him by the LITERAL mighty hand.
So, I cannot possibly see how you could argue from the point of the big bang theory.
Seriously,
What is Einensteins great quote?
"Acts of god is a great way to explain what science is yet to explain"
so true so true......
Gosh Simon, I wish I had been in on the after dinner calvedos and discussion. I know just how much Maalie hates the scientist bigots.
Susan, you should be ashamed of yourself--defending the indefensible. I draw your attention to Lorenzo's own words, posted at my blog:
"Susan says that you reckon that in Nepal yoga is full of demon worship. Can't say I have come across it here....I attended Chenrezi most evenings. Chenrezi is pure love and compassion and you are supposed to visualize him while the service is going on. You can visualise anything you want and Christians tend to visualise a dove for the Holy Spirit, or their idea of Christ or maybe an angel..."
You tell me with your own mouth, Susan, if you have the courage, who is Chenrezi? Is "he" (Lorenzo refers to Chenrezi as “him”) pure love and compassion, or is "he" a demon or Satan himself masquerading as an angel of light??? You are a Christian, Susan. Surely you know the answer!
Maalie (& Simon),
Glad you are back. The question of which Susan refers , that I asked while you were away, was this:
"Anyone reading this please give me an example where "symmetry, beauty, order, and rationality" comes out of chaos. Just one example PLEASE. As Andrew points out, all of these are found in the universe. There must be a cause to such order—especially if that order came out of a great and catastrophic explosion.
One example, please, of order out of chaos. Perhaps someone can think of one. If so, please share. For the life of me, I don't know what that example would be except the 'theory' of big bang."
p.s. I expect you will tell me I'm a Druid now.
Ooo you are a tenacious little Luther aren't you, a bit like a terrier with a bone!
Chenrezi isn't a he or a she. It is just easier to say he, as when talking of God one tends to say He rather than She or It.
The Buddhists say Chenrezi is pure love and compassion. I don't see much demonic worship there as I was under the impressions that demons are rather unpleasant creatures.
No one is asking anyone to believe in Chenrezi but if you attend the services and find it difficult to visualize a white faced being with four arms and stripey pantaloons, then you visualise what you consider is pure love and compassion, i.e. dove, Christ or an angel.
I am not a Buddhist but I like the Buddhist philosophy, the love, compassion, the non-harm to any sentient creature etc. etc. Just because I go along sometimes to their services, doesn't mean I go along with their beliefs concerning who or what Chenrezi, Tara etc. are, reincarnation and the rest of the kaboodle, any more I suspect than you would get involved with a Mass should I ever decide to take you to one.
Most of the things that the Buddha said, Christ repeated a few hundred years later. I see no problem with this.
What you have re-quoted from your blog that I wrote was:
'animal sacrifices, sounds a bit like the Old Testament' and 'Jesus said there are many rooms in my father's house'. I am sure such a devoted and holy man such as the Dalai Lama will find his way there.
I'm just off now to do a few 'sun salutes' and a couple of 'downward facing dog'.
... and another thing Luther. You talk of Chenrezi as Satan in disguise. Well, Jesus said 'by their fruits you shall know them'.
I don't know whether you bothered to read my posting on my week on Holy Island, but the Buddhists are the most kind and gentle people I have ever met. Completely wild animals come to be near the centre because of the gentle aura it exudes. Animals are very instinctive and they keep out of harm's way.
I had an email from one of the Buddhists today to let me know that a young horse that had been ill, had died in the night. The mare had brought her filly to the centre and stood by her baby for days. There was nothing anyone could do. The vets won't attempt to treat wild animals and these horses really ARE wild. This filly will be buried in eight days and prayers will be said over the body.
Now I expect you will go on a bit about this not being Biblical. Does it actually matter? Is it not more important to show love, respect and kindness to all sentient beings?
There is one question I have been meaning to ask the Calvinists and this is, do you eat Kosher food? Do you mix fibres in your clothing, do you shave or do you leave your beard, symbolically as as the side of the field un-reaped for the gleaners? There are so many rules in Leviticus that I would bet (if betting wasn't against my own personal rules)that you all break every day of your lives.
Hi Lorenzo,
Yes. Chenrezi IS the devil or one of his demons, disguising as something good. And I am confident that EVERY CHRISTIAN at this blog agrees with me, including Susan. We will just have to wait and see if Susan or anyone else has enough guts and enough love for you to tell you the truth.
PS: Calvinists know we are saved by grace and grace alone. We obey none of those things you mentioned. The book of Hebrews clearly shows that those laws ended with the New Covenant in Jesus' blood and are not binding upon any Christians. The Levitical Laws, not just what you mentioned, but the animal sacrifices as well, were a mere shadow of what was to come through Christ and have now passed away in the New Covenant.
There is no such person as Chenrezi!!! He, She or It is a thought, a feeling or whatever you want to call it, not a person. Chenrezi is another name for pure compassion and love. I don't know the word in Sanscrit for 'compasion' but it might be 'Chenrezi'. Do you understanding what I am trying to say. Chenrezi is an emotion, a loving, kind, gentle, compassionate emotion. Some people find it helpful to visualise this as a smiley white face, four arms and stripey pantaloons. Other people might visualise it as something else. It really doesn't matter. I don't envisage emotions. To me they just are. So how is an emotion of true and pure as love and compasion, Satan?
Re the old laws. I see that Calvinists DO pick and chose which parts of the Bible to believe. You, and others, have quoted before, that the Bible has to be taken as a whole, not just the bits you believe. So if you reject the laws, customs and rites of the Old Testament, why do you still cling to the creation and Noah's Ark stories? There is no logic in this.
Can you tell me EXACTLY what Paul said about breaking the laws of the Old Testament? I do feel there is a bit of cherry picking going on here!
"Can you tell me EXACTLY what Paul said about breaking the laws of the Old Testament?"
The Apostle Paul goes into great detail about this in his divinely inspired epistles to the church at Galatia, and the church at Rome.
I'd encourage you to sit and read both these books Llama. Ask the Lord to show you the truth of His Word.
I was set feee from legalism early in my Christian walk by reading and studying the book of Galatians.
Paul explains the relationship of the law with grace.
And it all comes to the Cross in the end.
Paul says at the end of this letter to his brothers and sisters, that he will not boast in anything but the Cross of Jesus Christ.
:o)
Oh! lets all relax.
There is no such thing as the devil, no such thing as god-
just the chance to think positivly about ourselves and about others, to enjoy what we have, where we have, when we have.
To be content in all things, whether given much or little.
Really! if Lorenzo is out "devil worshipping" then I say bring it on.....
Of course if you are a right wing chrisitian/muslim/jew you just hate about everybody. ( hence the Sapnish inquisition) salem burning of "withces" Todays Muslims leaving there women uneducated and blowing others up..
Jews stealing from Palestinians becasue Moses gave them this land
blah blah blah
Now, If you vote for me in the first "one world" government, I can assue you I will ban these three religions....
;o)
AS I said in other posts- I have never met a christian who can swallow deadly poison, cast out demons or heal. Nor have a met a satanist who can do the same....
its just nonsense and big business
Seriously Lorenzo- I agree with you 100%- you cannot just "cherry pick."
frankly I think most christians struggle with the reconciling "Law" and "grace" ( or is that Yingyang??)
One cannot live without the other!
Woah I might have discovered a new faith!!
BTW- I am SO sorry for my typos!
Also How are you guys feeling about the collapse of American banking?
IS it foretold in Revelations??
Will this be the heralding of end??
Simon and Lorenzo I would love to have been in on the after dinner calvedos discussion too, although Maalie may consider me a scientific bigot, so perhaps it is better that I wasn't invited!
Hummm, Simon the collapse of American Banking with AIG the latest issue? Interestingly enough, all my retirement is there. Honestly thought, as you know Simon, I'm trusting in someone a bit bigger and better than AIG to get me through my life successfully - humilty and meekness and all.
Glad you and Maalie had a good time in Paris. I'm sure you wish you were going with him to Madagascar as much as I do!
Triston
I think Lorenzo is right - you are persistent, except perhaps I would have said a pit bull rather than a terrier with a bone! Might I remind you that the scriptural exhortation is the truth in love, not the truth with a sledge hammer?
In addition, while you may not agree with how or when I answer blog comments, I do so with thought and prayer and do not answer to you for the comments, but only to God as I must fear Him and not any (wo)man, as you know. I'm not sure whether you intended to being throwing out threats, taunts or dares, but your tone is not appreciated. I also have a work schedule that does not allow for constant monitoring of my blog. I frequently won't see it but once a day or once every other day - and then there's the matter of pondering how is the best way to answer....
Now, as to the question at hand, as much research as google and wikipedia permit do suggest that in some cultures the "Chenrezi" actually is a god and it appears that Tibet is one of them. The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, 1997 keeps referring me to the word, "Avalokiteśvara" when I look up "Chenrezi" and the definition it gives is ‘the lord who looks in every direction’. So, I can certainly see why you would feel as you do Triston. Certainly, I would have nothing to do with anything of the sort, but I suspect you already know this. My yoga participation is one of exercise and some focused breathing, not of any practice other than that. The strength and flexibility are excellent for my body, which literally met with a Mac truck some years ago and the focused breathing, also quite good for a scientist whose brain tends to go 24/7, even when I try to pray.
May I also remind you that idols come in many forms - some that appear as benign "gods" and are not, some that appear as delightfully innocent such as cake and beer and are not. Would I suggest worship of any - no, of course not. And, asked for my advice (which of course I haven't been), I would recommend that it is better to be safe than sorry and to stay away.
However, Lorenzo has already told you that she specifically is trying to focus on the compassion of Christ, not entering into worship of a demon or a false god or whatever you may call it. Since God looks at the heart, I would suggest you do so too. Whether she is deceived by what is actually going on or not is a matter for prayer - for all of us, for all of us can be too easily deceived by many things that appear good.
I may also remind you that we are not all subject to the same rules because we do not all accept Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God. I like what Don said the best - in the end, it all comes down to the cross. My concern is what people do with the man Jesus and what He said about Himself. I think given an appropriate view of that, the rest will all fall into place.
"Also How are you guys feeling about the collapse of American banking?"
I hate it. I blame the Congress for the inflation, and not being a Congress for the people.
The leaders in the USA are very bad at this time. We need some leaders who care about how this country was started: And get back to serving, instead of ruling.
I pray the Lord would pour out His grace at this time. Not so much for me, but for my children, and grandchildren.
America had a good start:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. .....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
don I agree. my father was on the phone stressed. I said "why stress?" there is more to life than wealth...
:o)
> Anyone reading this please give me an example where "symmetry, beauty, order, and rationality" comes out of chaos.
It happens all the time. Molecules of any salt are in chaotic (random) solution in a solute. They may spontaneously crystallise to form symmetry, order, and rational structures. Whether or not they may be considered "beautiful" is of course a personal value judgement and beyond the scope of scientific investigation.
As indeed is personal incredulity.
SIMON, yes, those who have already decided through an act of "faith" (=indoctrination) are blind to reality, and accept only the evidence they want to see. They accept the science of medicine, electronics and transport but reject that of ecology, geology, genetics and so on, even though it is published in the same peer-reviewed way. It can only be called prejudice.
Greetings to all from Bratislava in Slovakia.
I am thoroughly surprised how you respond to the situation, Susan. Your friend Lorenzo has been sitting in the presence of a demon who has come as an angel of light and, you seem unconcerned, even defensive. Moreover, it was her own personal yoga instructor who taught the whole week and who teaches there four times a year, so she will continue to have a big influence in the life of your friend, Lorenzo. I'm not sure how you define friendship, or being there for a friend in her time of need, or how you intend to love Lorenzo as you love yourself, since this is something you personally would certainly avoid. But what absolutely baffles me (since you are a Christian) is when you say "Lorenzo has already told you that she specifically is trying to focus on the compassion of Christ." Have I heard you right? Are you actually justifying it??? What in the world difference does it make who or what Lorenzo is intending to focus on? Are you telling me that while she looks into the face of a demon and visualizes Christ, that makes it okay? I would not have expected such a nonsensical remark to come out of the mouth of a brilliant person like yourself. Perhaps all the yoga you participate in really has skewed your reasoning. I don’t know how to understand where you are coming from. If you were a non-Christian, it would make perfect sense. But I know you to be a Christian. That’s why I’m bewildered by your response. And I am not trying to be offensive; I am just at a lose how to understand you. One can visualize a tasty brownie while eating poop, but that does not make it a brownie. It remains poop. The same is true with Lorenzo’s Chenrezi. How any Christian cannot see it is utterly dumbfounding to me.
CODSWALLOP Luther!
Susan is so right when she says idols and Gods come in many forms. They can come in total self-belief; they can come in belief that everything you think and say is right; they can come in self-righteousness. You can make an idol of anything.
If I say this computer screen in front of me is a demon, then to all sense and purpose, it becomes a demon for me.
If I say that a strong emotion of love, gentleness and compassion is Christ or the Holy Spirit, then to me that feeling is Christ or the Holy Spirit.
I don't have to put a picture or name to what I feel. Emotions just are.
As I said earlier, by their fruits you shall know them. Personally I have known some very unpleasant Christians and I have known some very kind and loving non-Chrisians who live wondrous, charitable and loving lives.
Are you really trying to say that Christians who murdered, tortured in the most horrible and terrible manner during the Spanish Inquisition are saved purely because they believed in Christ? Do you really think Christ wanted all that murder and mayhem going on in His name?
Do you believe that the American Christians who murdered, stole and abused the Native American Indians were justified and members of the elect?
God gave us brains. Use them.
I have a two hour yoga lesson with Sarah once a week. Just look at her photo on my blog? Just look and tell me again that you judge her. Judge not lest you be judged.
luther! calm down..
Lorenzo is quite safe....
I mean I am a 33rd level mason, so I should know.....
Maalie! amen 100% mate.. (It was good to share a spiritual moment in Notre Darme to BTW!)
Yes, I remember lighting that candle with you with the intention of saving all Calvinists from their delusion. May they be reborn into the reality of evidence! znfxdq
Lorenzo,
Many evil things have been done by evil people in the name of Christ. It is quite lamentable. And no; I have no reason to believe those involved in the Spanish Inquisition were genuine Christians.
I am not judging your yoga instructor. I am sure she is a very kind, loving person, though deceived. I am not judging anyone’s intentions here. Many well meaning people, in absolute sincerity of heart, sometimes lead others astray. The fact of the matter is that Chenrezi cannot be of God. It is completely incompatible with Christianity, with the truth of Christ and with the teaching of God's Word from beginning to end.
You keep speaking of "You will know them by their fruit." The fruit of Buddhism, of Chenrezi is to take your eyes off of Christ and turn your eyes in another direction. This is rotting fruit, not good fruit.
>Re the old laws. I see that Calvinists DO pick and chose which parts of the Bible to believe.
That simply is not true, Lorenzo. If you read the book of Galatians, as Don mentions, you will see what we mean....Or even this text from Hebrews:
"In that He says, 'A new covenant,' He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
The writer is talking about the Levitical laws, that now this covenant has become obsolete because of the much better and superior covenant in Christ. The Levitical law was just a foreshadowing of the ultimate covenant God would make with humankind through His son. And we do not just pull this out of thin air. Paul teaches this throughout Galatians and the writer of Hebrews taught the same thing, as the text above indicates. I’m not sure why you would assume that laws given to the Jews would apply to Gentile Christians anyway. The first council of the Church (found in Acts chapter 15) reveals that Gentiles are not required to obey these Jewish civil laws.
Chenrezi is NOT A GOD!!!!! I'm sorry if you believe he is a God. Personally, I don't.
The laws for Jews must surely apply to Gentiles if the Gentiles believe the Old Testament. I know only one new covenent: love each other as I have loved you.
Ooo Simon, I've always wanted a mason!
>The fact of the matter is that Chenrezi cannot be of God. It is completely incompatible with Christianity
But that is just the sort of things that Buddhists and Muslims and others say about Christianity. Axiomatically they cannot all be right, and it is more likely that they are all wrong. Deluded.
Luther, you are evidently an atheist with respect to the hundreds of different "Gods" that have been erected by mankind since he emerged as Homo habilis and became a cultural animal some 3-4 MILLION years ago.
I am too. I simply go one God further than you do.
RUNCIBLE MAALIE
"It can only be called prejudice."-maalie
That's a strange statement.
I'm not prejudice towards God's ecology, geology, genetics, and so on.
I just will never believe a human being, and life itself really, could become life from nothing; or even gas.
I also believe with all my heart, (I mean,all that I am), that the Man, Jesus of Nazareth, was tortured and died on a Cross, nearly 2000 years ago, and after three days He rose from the dead, according to all the prophecies written in the OT.
Hi Lorenzo,
It is a pity you weren't at the Jerusalem council. You could have stood up and opposed Saint Peter:
"And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question....some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe....why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that we shall be saved, just as they are.” (Acts 15:1-11)
"Love each other as I have loved you." is NOT the covenant. You know what the covenant is Lorenzo. The Priest proclaims it at every Mass:
“Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:27-28)
Good for you Donsands. I like a person to be so positive about their beliefs. I wish I could too.
Maalie,
You are right in the fact that I deny entirely every supposed "god", except the One true God, who is found through Jesus Christ alone. But I wouldn't articulate it the way you have.
>I just will never believe a human being, and life itself really, could become life from nothing; or even gas.
Donsands, of course that is the archtypal, perfect example of the "argument from personal incredulity" (please look at the link I inserted above).
I suggest that the way forward for you is to look at some of the evidence in the peer-reviewed literature. There are plenty of synopses on the internet, but please make sure you are not being waylayed by all that psuedo-scientific misinformation put about by the creationists.
> except the One true God
How do you know it is the "one true God"? Everybody has believed from the dawn of mankind that "their" God is the one true God!!!!
Dear, dear, maalie
Greetings to you also - are you one the way to Madagascar or is this a lovely holiday before the true one begins?
Some quotes of yours that I would like to respond to because I think you sum the argument up well! "How do you know it is the "one true God"? Everybody has believed from the dawn of mankind that "their" God is the one true God!!!! Axiomatically they cannot all be right, and it is more likely that they are all wrong. Deluded."
You are so right, they cannot all be correct. However, I would differ with your conclusion that they are then all wrong, for I do believe that there is one true God. He came to live among us in the person of Jesus, the Christ, who now reigns in Heaven, seated at the right hand of God the Father, while the God the Holy Spirit lives among us for this age.
I would challenge anyone who really seeks to know if there is a God to ask Him to show Himself to them and to be willing to study the life of Jesus as presented in the gospels. There you may meet Him for yourself, as others have done for centuries.
Enjoy your travels! I will look forward to your posts on them.
Lorenzo
I do not disagree with litl-luther's stand on the Law - at least I don't think I do, but I get lost in so many words. Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it - and so He did, fulfill the law that is - and so now, in His reign, we are under grace, not under the law. He has established a New Covenant, sealed with His own blood and this is the one we dwell under. So, is it cherry-picking to no be under the Levitical laws of the Old Testament; no, I do not think so. It is simply obeying the law of the New Covenant. This New Covenant, by the way, keeps the basic 10 Commandments of the Old Testament and, as luther says, does away with the restrictive millions of rules about food and fibers and such as they are no longer needed. They served their purpose to point us to our need for a savior - and since a Savior has come, they are no longer needed.
litl-luther
Somehow it doesn't surprise me that you are thoroughly surprised by my response.
However, you are quite right; I do love my friend Lorenzo quite a lot!
What I want for her ultimately is exactly what she has expressed for herself in response to Don's words, to be positive about what she believes as he is positive.
The apostle John states it all so very well as he repeats Jesus' own words (John 17:3), "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." and again in 1John 5:13, "I write these things that you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life."
As to the rest of it - I think this is the critical step - to first know Christ and I do not wish to move to another stand, only this one first. In the words of the lovely hymn by Helen Lemmel (1922), "Turn your eyes upon Jesus, Look full in His wonderful face, And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, In the light of His glory and grace."
So, my desire for my friend is the same as it is for myself, and really for all of us, that we would look fully in Jesus face; and as we do, I trust that He will make the Truth know to us, He will save us, sanctify us here on the earth and one day glorify us by taking us to be with Him physically forever.
Is that your favourite hymn Susan?
Mine is:
Oh thou who camest from above
Thy pure Celestial fire to impart
Kindle a flame of sacred love
On the mean alter of my heart
etc. etc.
Amen Susan.
What can I say Maalie? In every way, by His words and deeds--both His deeds in the world and in my own life--the One true God proves Himself again and again to be the One living and faithful God.
>the One true God proves Himself again and again to be the One living and faithful God.
How can I respond to that (and to Halfmom) except to say, that is what they ALL said! All of the hundreds of "Gods" erected by humankind since the dawn of our culture in the palaeolithic epoch revealed themselves in an equally a convincing way!
Thanks for travel good wishes, I am off to Madagascar* next week, having just stood on the soil of five separate European countries in as many days :-)
* I today received details of the travel itinerary. We expect to see some 17 species of lemurs and other prosimians - you know those creatures the forerunners from which those dreadful biologists claim we have all evolved!
"lemurs and other prosimians"
You would think these animals would have faded into oblivion, and they would all be men and women, or perhaps some inbetween types.
Just thinking out loud.
And I have checked out the websites you've given me. I still disagree. They are not sufficient evidence. There's the fact that I am typing on this keyboard, and am real, and have articulate, (well maybe more like crude), words forming in my head, and then I type them out with skill, (well, not much skill that is), and to think I came into being out of nothing, nothing.
That will always amaze me.
>You would think these animals would have faded into oblivion
Why should I think that? They have been evolving on this planet for as long as we have. They remain unchanged because they are in a habitat that suits them. Of course their ancestors that may have represented branch points in primate evolution became extinct millennia ago.
It is all quite simple once you properly understand the principles of natural selection. At the moment you seem to like to wallow in ignorance (or possibly incredulity) of the evidence because it appears that you have made a value judgement that it all happened by magic. It didn't happen by magic, it is all perfectly explainable (it happens to take a semester of lectures to explain it :-)
"it is all perfectly explainable"
Do you really mean all?
If so, explain how life, even a one cell whatever came to life out of a rock, or gas. And if you would also explain where the gas came from, if it is all explainable.
I realize we will never probably agree on this, however I have enjoyed your tone, a bit fiesty at times, in the good sense of the word.
I do pray the Lord bless you and your family.
Donsands, I can't take up Halfmom's space to explain what would take a semester of lectures! LOL!
Why not start here?. By the way, it's not just ME, you know, you are up against some of your own elite American scientist here!
I find the notion that the whole of human diversity as we know it today could have been derived from just one man and one woman who arrived here on a certain day by magic is just too silly to contemplate. My incredulity is based on evidence: evidence that I have personally seen and handled myself. Have you?
Hey Donsands, am I included in Maalie's blessing? I am his little sister! I do hope so.
I am going to have to duck out of this now as it's early to bed. I'm off to Turkey in the morning for a spot of sailing.
Goodnight all of you and I'll see you when I get back.
Blessings! xx
"Have you?"
Not really in the way you mean.
The foundation, and cornerstone of my evidence are the thousands of manuscripts of the Bible.
Wonderful evidence.
Homer's Iliad authenticity is not question. And it's a wonderful book of Greek Mythology.
But the point has to be made that there is overwhelming evidence for it's genuineness. Although we do not have the original.
The Bible is far and away, with the thousands of manuscripts, superior in it's authenticity to the Iliad, and the Iliad is quite an amazing book for us to have in itself.
Having said that, in the crudest way, for I am not very educated, I believe the Bible claims, and without doubt proves, that Jesus of Nazareth died by crucifixion on a Roman cross. And that He rose from the dead on the third day.
This is my foundation for why I exist, why I am who I am.
I don't believe I evolved from a cosmos that one day decided to start things going; nor from a fish, or an ape.
It's an impossibility. I will continue to read both sides.
i would love to see you and creationist debate the evidence Maalie!
That I would love. A respectful on both sides debate. Perhaps one day that will happen. If it does, hopefully I'll be able to attend. No matter where it may take place.
Have a great evening.
here's a song chorus from a wonderful Christian man, who died a few years back, which says what my soul feels.
"I believe what I believe is making me what I am,
I did not make it; No it is making me.
It is the very truth of God,
Not the invention of any man." -Rich Mullins
Ah Don - that is one of my all time favorite songs - and of course, Rich Mullins one of my all time favorite singers. Keith Green - a favorite of Simon's too - is another!
And I agree with you completely - the Bible is absolutely the basis for my life.
And Lord, bless Llama.
Yes Lord, do richly bless our beloved Llama and each and everyone that she claims as her own (even that runcible big brother). Give her clear insight and a strong and sturdy vision of who You are - one certain enough to keep her safe and secure through any gale or storm! Amen!
Donsands, then may I ask what you "do" with the scientific evidence? Do you ignore it, pretend it is not there, or only accept the science that suits you?
You evidently accept the developments in medical research (I presume you don't allow doctors to use leeches to suck out your blood every time you at ill); you evidently accept the science of electronics (you are presumably use a computer, hifi, stereo etc;); and I guess other aspects of science too.
So where exactly is your "boundary" between that part of the scientific peer-reviewed literature that you accept, and that which you don't? Do you accept the science of genetics, for example? Geology? Biochemistry? Or only those parts of those subjects which apply to medicine, etc.? And if so, where within those do your boundaries lie?
It seems to me that if you reject ANY science, then you should reject it all.
Ah thanks Susan for the prayer.
Love Lorenzo. xx
Oh, and Don, Amen to that song and its words by Rich Mullins, who by the way was a fifth grade classmate of my wife, Deb!
Science and Scientists:
At various times in history, Christians have found themselves dissenting from the accepted findings of contemporary science. In the vast majority of cases, sincere Christian faith and strong trust in the Bible have led scientists to the discovery of new facts about God’s universe, and these discoveries have changed scientific opinion for all of subsequent history. The lives of Isaac Newton, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Blaise Pascal, Robert Boyle, Michael Faraday, James Clerk Maxwell, and many others are examples of this.
Many people in the Christian community have steadfastly refused to agree with the dominant opinion of scientists today regarding evolution. On this matter, thousands of Christians have examined Scripture again and again in great detail, and many have concluded that Scripture is not silent on the process by which living organisms came into being. Moreover, careful observation of the facts of the created universe has produced widespread disagreement regarding theories of evolution (both from scientists who are Christians and from a number of non-Christian scientists as well). So on both biblical and scientific grounds, theories of evolution have been challenged by Christians.
The question of the creation of the universe is unlike many other scientific questions because creation is not something that can be repeated in a laboratory experiment, nor were there any human observers of it. Therefore pronouncements by scientists about creation and the early history of the earth are at best educated speculation. If we are convinced, however, that the only observer of these events (God himself) has told us about them in the reliable words of the Bible, then we should pay careful attention to the biblical account.
God’s providence provides a basis for science: God has made and continues to sustain a universe that acts in predictable ways. God’s providence also provides a foundation for technology: I can be confident that gasoline will make my car run today just as it did yesterday, not simply because “it has always worked that way,” but because God’s providence sustains a universe in which created things maintain the properties with which he created them.
God gives “common grace” in the intellectual realm which results in an ability to grasp truth and distinguish it from error, and to experience growth in knowledge that can be used in the investigation of the universe and in the task of subduing the earth. This means that all science and technology carried out by non-Christians (Even Maalie!) is a result of common grace allowing them to make incredible discoveries and inventions, to develop the earth’s resources into many material goods, etc.
"It seems to me that if you reject ANY science, then you should reject it all."
I accept all truth, logic, and facts. If the facts are undeniable, then I accept them.
There are "so-called" facts, like global warming for instance, that everyone says is fact. This I do not accept.
I will think on your last comment some more, and I appreciate the challenge. It's a good one.
>allowing them to make incredible discoveries and inventions
And that of course includes discovery of the evidence for the evolution of man from prehominid precursors.
Ah Maalie my dear I think you are as tenacious a pit bull as our litl-luther!
I do not reject the scholarly work, I simply come to a different conclusion of what the data actually mean.
Any, as you know, this is not at all unusual in science. It happens everyday as we read the literature and as we train graduate students. Do you not train the students the same way? We spend a lot of time getting them (well trying to) to think critically and evaluate, "do the data really support the conclusion of the author"? Or, "does the author have data that support the hypothesis he is proposing?"
Surely you have read a body of literature before, looked at their data and just said, "I don't buy it. I don't think you can draw that conclusion from these data!"
"Surely you have read a body of literature before, looked at their data and just said, "I don't buy it. I don't think you can draw that conclusion from these data!"-Susan
That's a good statement.
I remember the hoax of, I think it was a pigs tooth, where this supposedly wonderful find was a million years old. I'm just recollecting from a bad mind here, but there have been a lot of hoaxes throughout scientific work and studies as well. And the great discoveries, like Gallileo, and especially Nicolaus Copernicus.
>I simply come to a different conclusion of what the data actually mean.
May I then respectfully propose that you submit your conclusions to the editor of Nature for peer review?
You could make a real name for yourself :-)
Question: Isn't the whole point of blog comments to comment on what the original author wrote? Just a thought, as this is ludicrously out of control. I'd be at least somewhat upset if people were simply using my blog as a platform for things totally unrelated to its content. Susan?
Maalie
Perhpas I should write a letter to the editor, eh Maalie?
Andrew The blog does seem to have a life of its own sometimes. As long as they're reasonable polite to one another, they may discuss their differences freely here.
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