Sometimes science is difficult for me – and an extended week of science away from home is even more so. It’s not that it’s not fun or beneficial. It’s not that I don’t have good friends from other parts of the country – the world for that matter - that I look forward to seeing. It’s not even that I don’t love science, for I do. There’s just no down time and I tend to forget who I really am. I play a part for so long that I forget that, even though this part is a true component of the whole, it is not the complete package.
I’ve long compared my personality to the structure of an M&M. All most really see is the bright, shiny candy coating – colorful, even attractive – the gracious Southern woman who smiles and befriends everyone and puts them at ease, the one everyone, except those closest to me, assumes is an extravert. But, that is such a small part of the total package.
It is good to be home and sit quietly with scripture and remember, despite my mercurial feelings, who I am. It is good to be with friends who really know me, to let down the candy-coated guard and just be myself.
105 comments:
Yes, maybe that's why I've felt closest to two people with no special training or education, and were quite "plain" country folks with a deep love for the Lord. The husband is now with the Lord. I can't remember ever feeling closer to any others than them.
Because we were all ourselves. No pretense. And with that there can be real honesty and less delusion about ourselves and how we're doing, according to God's will for us in Jesus.
Nice post, Susan.
>I’ve long compared my personality to the structure of an M&M
That is a nice simile, Halfmom. I wonder how your other readers think of their own personalities?
I have often had mine compared to a soft fluffy baby rabbit. Or a milk chocolate with a soft sweet smooth centre.
Yes Maalie, your sister has suggested that you're really a softy at heart! So, your comparisons seem to fit with her assessment pretty well.
Baby rabbits around here, at least the wild ones, are pretty skitterish though - are you? You, for all your traveling about, seem pretty stable to me.
Mmm, well, I'm just a crotchety old llama.
Rabbits arn't naughty enough to be Maalies.
runcible rabbits?
Simon,
You're okay in my book(the Lamb's Book of Life I'm not so sure about, but I'm cool with you). I've got the skin of a croc, so cursing isn't going to ruffle my bony plates.
Sorry to spoil your fun Simon in running around the blogsphere saying you’ve been banned for swearing, but you certainly have not been banned from here and saying so is a load of crap, to put it in your own language.
Your comment was not deleted for swearing, although I would prefer that there not be any because there are some of my readers who actually would be offended. Your comment was deleted because it was vulgar, because you continually berate and belittle people who believe differently than you do.
You have every right to believe whatever you want - and to believe about me whatever you want, but you don't have a right to continually berate me and/or other commenters on my blog. As I have said before, it is not necessary to attack and demean to disagree. And that goes for everyone who comments here, not just you. If you think back, you might even remember that I’ve expressed the same sentiment to some that I thought were being rude to you – they just responded differently than you have – and I have stood up for you on other blogs too.
So go or stay as you choose or bounce about spreading lies as you have already been, but I will continue to delete anyone, regardless of viewpoint, who I think is just trying to be demeaning to others, something I consider drivel and unworthy of blog space
Maalie - if you are, as suggested by KiwiNomad, instigating in all this, please stop. I don't think it's funny in the least.
I've worked hard to keep this blog open to all who want to have civil discussions and I don't appreciate others trying to stir the water and cause dissention just for fun!
May I be permitted to make some waves among even the Christians at this site? Here is another Bible "theme" I love, but how do you feel about it?
When did the Jews leave Egypt? Passover. How many days did it take the Jews to get to Mt. Sinai? 40 days. Moses goes up the mountain of God, and on the 50th day he comes down with the 10 Commandments.
What day did Jesus die? Passover. 40 days later He went up into heaven—he ascended, and 10 days after that the Holy Spirit came down. On the same day that the 10 Commandments were given the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost. When Moses came down and saw the people worshipping the golden calf, he told the Levites to strap on their knives and execute anyone who had anything to do with planning it. How many people died that day? 3000. And thirteen hundred years later when the Holy Spirit came down on exactly the same day, how many people came to life? 3000!!!
This is not some arbitrary number as if we should say “Wow. That was lucky!” No! God would not have saved 2500 that day; nor would He have saved 4000. He brought 3000 people to life that day because there was purpose in that number. I see this and wonder how can anyone not realize that God determines who will be saved and when.
The same day Jesus died, God led His people out of slavery in Egypt. The same day that Jesus went up into Heaven, Moses went up the mountain. The same day the Holy Spirit came down on Pentecost, Moses came down the mountain. And the same day that 3000 people died for their sin, 3000 souls were saved. Tell me God isn’t behind all of these things.
Just another reason why I believe the whole Bible is a book about Jesus Christ and one more reason among many for why I don't mind being labeled a Calvinist.
Luther can think anything he wants as long as he's civil when he expresses it on my blog - as can you. But derogatory name calling is something that we try to teach children to stop doing when kindergarden. So I'm sure you can manage if you try.
as to lies - when you go about saying you've been banned from a blog for swearing - it most certainly is an inaccurate representation of the truth!
Now you two on the other side of the world have a wonderful time chatting - I must get some sleep!
Luther- on a serious note. HAve you ever done the Jewish passover feast (I have) and of course you remember the last supper..and Jesus.
I note with interest that at passover the bread is broken into three and a piece of it is hidden under the table cloth. This is done by the head of the house... a child asks the ehad of the house what is the significance and the father cannot answer...
Interesting to see that Jesus removed that very "hidden third piece" and said " this is my body which is broken for you etc" (noting also the three and the significance of father ,son and holy ghost) In answer to the question!! SEE??
So whilst the Jews are still waiting for their messiah- Jesus claimed that he was at that very table.. Anyway you got to read the Hebrew and the greek translations to get a grip on the incredible significance.
And of course at the Jewish Passover feast one seat is left vacant.. however Jesus sat in that very seat that was left vacant for the Messiah...
anyway- I am off to have a beer!
My comment is not based on silly fluff but real analysis..sadly not many Chrisitians are taught the significance of the passover feast... if you celebrate it with the "christ" and the understanding of it- Its a powerful ritual...
Let me know what you think...( before I get deleted)
;o)
LtL - I have a mathematician friend who would love that last comment - and I think I would as well except I'm too tired to do all the math having just come home from Bible study myself - we are in Matt 21 and were working through how incredibly many of the Old Testiment prophecies were fulfilled by that one donkey and the entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.
What instigating? I thought the only comment I have left here so far is quite a pleasant one. What has Kiwi got to do with this? I've been out of it for a few days and am obviously out of date.
You assume too quickly that none of us study Greek and Hebrew Simon, or that none of us celebrate passover and Easter in an appropriate manner recognizing the symbolism inherent in the last supper.
Yes, there are Pharisees to this day - clean cups on the outside and dirty on the inside - that name the name of Christ - and they will be uprooted with the tares and burned. But, there are also real believers here who love Christ and long for His coming. Discerning the difference between the two is not for you to judge - His sheep hear His voice and know Him and are known by Him.
Bahhh
Hi Simon,
Very insightful. I’m impressed. I really am. Years ago a friend of mine (Messianic Jewish guy) invited me for Passover, and I was blown away by all the indicators of Christ in Judaism tradition and yet Most Jews don't recognize that Jesus is their Messiah.
You brought that subject out very well, Simon. If we had not been aware of all your previous emails, your commentary on the Passover sounded like a knowledgeable Christian. Now, I can tell you used to be active at some level in the Church as you’ve indicated.
Like you saw the significance of Jesus in the Jewish Passover even though the Jews don’t accept Him, I had something similar reading the Tanakh (the Jewish Bible). Right on the back cover its claim to fame was that it had avoided every Christian translation, yet I found Jesus so clearly revealed all through it. It was a big faith strengthener. But all these things (The Passover stuff you brought out and my experience with the anti-Christian translation of the Tanakh) is that Jesus really is who He claimed to be: The Son of God, the Messiah of Israel—the Savior of the World.
Thanks for sharing Simon. I enjoyed it. Now I'm off to have a beer too. Cheers!
Hi Susan,
Matt. 21. Awesome text.
I hope your Math mathematician friend can look it over. I'd love to hear what he\she (or you) comes up with.
Halfmom, thanks for the comment - I evidently misunderstood and have removed both mine and yours as neither are now on topic. I assure you there is no conspiracy between Kiwi and me, I hadn't even seen the comments you referenced.
The problem with "banning" is that it can't be enforced so long as the comments are in the public domain. The only way is to enable comment moderation. I was notoriously "banned" from Bluecollar because I was commenting on their topics by using reason and evidence rather than superstition which they considered to be "dangerous". I expect they thought there was a danger that some of their readers might become enlightened and emerge from their delusion. In the same way, SOME of the USA bible-belt prevent their darling children from going to school to avoid the risk of encountering a "dangerous science teacher" and learn something about evolution(I know because they have told me so).
Litl Luther, you mean the story about the tenants of the vineyard stoning the servants to death? I would say violent rather than awesome.
Simon,
I'm not sure what would make you assume that none of the Christians on this blog take the original languages seriously. Why would you say that? Because we don't post our responses to you in Hebrew or Koine Greek? I don't get the logic behind the remark.
Maalie,
I was mainly referring to the Triumphal Entry of Jesus in to Jerusalem, where even the rocks would have cried out had people not been shouting His praises. That is what I was thinking of when I wrote "awesome". (I wonder "rocks shouting" would fit with evolution).
Clearly metaphorical. Metaphor is a popular use of language in all good mythology.
I can easily imagine people shouting someone's praises as he enters a village, it still goes on when a pop idol or football star comes to town. Jesus was clearly very influential and charismatic and was obviously capable of rousing mass hysteria just like the Spice Girls of the Beatles have done in our time.
It is not within my experience that rocks can actually shout, but I have heard some good echoes in my time.
your last few lines....reminds me of the song by Natalie Grant "Real Me"
Maalie - Banning is silly - warning, I hope, will suffice - and if not, there's always comment enabling
I may be mostly a "melt in your hand" M&M, but the hard candy coat is there, God-given, for a reason and can be quite useful when needed.
Litl-Luther - I don't know - sometimes when I am in the mountains and it it perfectly quiet and I look at the colors of the rocks rising above me, especially that special blue of the Blue Ridge, I could swear I hear praise rising from them!
anonymous - thank you for your comment, but names are required on this blog even if you choose to use the "anonymous" key to post.
the last few lines of your blog not all these comments by the way
oops sorry...this is Jessica in MO...I think you have heard of me :)
OK - that explains it quite nicely. It's good to have you here! Welcome - I am honored, as will be your sister.
Please just sign Jessica or "Jessica from MO" so we can keep you straight from other commenters. The debates have been rather heated around here lately and I want to know who is commenting - so with multiple anons, it was getting really confusing!
>I could swear I hear praise rising from them!
And do you also hear praise from the raging torrents that sweep away homes; the tsnumai that drowned thousands of people? Hurricane Katrina that made thousands of people destitute and homeless? Earthquakes that shake cities and destroy livelihoods and generate utter misery? It's all part of the earth's geology and climatology, you know, as well as the peaceful mountain landscape on a summer's day.
Yes indeed, God works in mysterious ways...
i was glad to happen on your blog from your comment, halfmom:) i'm enjoying looking over your posts and reflections, thank you.
in response to the discussion on passover it's also interesting to note that the very moment that Jesus is reported to have died in the Bible is the same moment that the Passover Lamb was slain according to festival and feast traditions.
God is awesome to use such clear pictures to draw people to Himself:)
Jim - I did - and will
Hi Dana - welcome!
Yes, not only the exact moment the passover lamb was slain - but the exact moment the curtain separating us from the Holy of Holies was torn - top to bottom - opening access.
And yes again, the pictures are clear for those that will see.
Yes, Maalie - even then.
When sin entered the world the consequences affected everything and everyone, even creation.
In Romans 8 you will find that creation was subjected to futility - and not willingly. Also that creation waits eagerly for restoration to its original state, set free from bondage to decay - the metaphorical language says that it groans as though in childbirth. I have been through tornadoes, hurricanes and floods - I could hear creation groan just as I can hear it rejoice on a clear day in the mountains.
I think it is interesting that people always seem to readily blame God for harm yet rarely is He thanked when the hurricance veers off into the ocean, or a tornado skips over a whole town.
>people always seem to readily blame God for harm
It is not blaming him, it is attributing it to him, as the "good" things are. Surly you must know from your own appreciation of basic physics that the course a hurricane is due to chance variables? You don't honestly think there is some divine almighty hand up there guiding cyclonic directions in this way or that, hitting some cities and avoiding others?
Example:
"There was a terrible storm last week. A tree blew down on the car in front of me and killed the driver. Next Sunday I went to church and fell down on my knees at the alter and prayed to the Lord to thank Him that it was the other man that was killed and not me".
Yes, I see what you mean!
Maalie - you are a runcible man indeed!
No, I do not think God's hand is guiding the weather - but I do think He sometimes intervenes in it for our benefit or the outcomes would be much worse than they are.
I was actually thinking of friends of mine who had a farm in KY - and stood in horror as a funnel cloud touched down less than 300 feet in front of them and headed straight for their front door - before they could even react, it split into two funnel clouds and went around the house, joined back together and then began to rip up trees instead.
Or the time that I, very pregnant and with my 10 year old stepson in tow, headed to the local mall - with me casually observing grey green upside down icecream cone clouds and wondering what they were caused by. We made it to the mall and inside, totally oblivious as to why there were sirens going off only to find that the tornado had just destroyed where I had been.
So yes, I think if God didn't intervene sometimes (and I think His intervention is always positive - for our benefit) that what we call "natural disasters" would be far worse than they are. I think it is only His protective hand that keeps the planet from spinning of its axis. (please do not now give me a lecture about the moon - I am familiar with that area of astrophysics - much to my painful study time in those classes)
thanks Luther. The problem with the written word (as in blogging) is that facial expressions and other indicators cannot be seen... So I do appologise if my language seems too "hot" or aggressive..or rude
I did not mean to imply that people may not have used Hebrew or greek... More to encourage the use.. too much is missing in English and especially modern Biblical "transltions"
Anyway- I would rahter read a bird book ( Now Susan befoe you tell me off...thats the FEATHERED variety!)
giggle - I had to think about "birds" for a minute to get the pun!
I agree whole-heartedly Simon, the English language lacks so much when compared to Greek - I'm not very good yet, but I'm learning - and loving it!
Now, now.
It's wonderful to know and study the koine Greek and Hebrew. I have Bibles of both and it is advantageous to be able to read from such. I'd like to carry my Greek New Testament every Sunday to church, but I don't want people looking at me as if I'm not one of them.
But I think it's an overstatement to say that our good Bible translations today, such as the TNIV, NLT, NASB, ESV, etc., leave us in the twilight zone or dusk as far as seeing the light of God's written word. Not at all, not at all!
Language inherently is difficult to translate, from one to another, as from German to English for example. So many idioms special to each and to know meaning is important. But really the essence, and especially so in the Hebrew, but true in the koine Greeek there, is there, and basically straightforward.
I will have to say there's a Bible translation I'm not all that enthusiastic about, except that it's still God's word written, as are Bible, even translations. It's the Amplified Bible. One mistakenly thinks they're getting all the shades of meaning on words there, which is only the case in some places. Most every place, the original has only one of those meanings. That version is misleading, therefore, in that way.
So keep working on the koine Greek, Susan, particularly for reading it. That's wonderful! But to all, don't try to take a word and think you can pull all sorts of meaning out of it from the original. It came to mean basically one thing by the time koine Greek was written, just like our words today (with their root meanings of the past).
Just my take (and from what I was taught).
But great thread there, great discussion and fun, too.
Susan & Maalie:
According to Jesus, even a bird cannot die unless it is God's will. (Matt. 10:29-30) So no one who dies from hurricanes, earthquakes etc. could possibly have done so except that God willed it. Moreover, for God to truly be the Sovereign over the earth and the Universe, He must be sovereign even over the weather, over death, over tragedies and over the little things of life—even the death of a bird. You name it. For God to be God, He must be sovereign over everything.
He is sovereign over your life right now Maalie! "In Him we live and move and have our being." (Acts 17:28) That applies to every human being, not just Christians. And about Christ it says "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." (Col. 1:17) The molecules in your body hold together because of the Son of God. I know you disagree with me, but every person eventually, whether in life or the day of death, be made aware that the Son of God is the Creator, the Sustainer, the Life giver, the Judge of all and the embodiment of Truth.
I thought that God NOTICED every sparrow that fell, not that He ordained that particular sparrow to fall.
Good observation Lorenzo!
Does the Roman Catholic Bible use "noticed"? I don't have a copy here or I would check it myself. But your observation is good because the word “will” is interpretive as it doesn't actually appear in the Greek.
Jesus said sparrows don't fall to the ground "without your father". For Simon's sake, let's look at the Greek:
an'-yoo (without) hoo-mone' (your) pat-ayr' (father)
I believe Jesus’ statement is stronger than simply noticed. The birds can't die without God. Jesus is not simply saying God sees all things. He is saying God controls all things. However, in all fairness the word will does not appear in the text, so that leaves it open to some interpretation. Nevertheless, "will" appears a more likely understanding than simply "notice". Thanks for the good observation!!
>He is sovereign over your life right now Maalie!
Well, heaven forbid that I should be controversial, but if that is true then my destiny is sealed, isn't it. They told me on Bluecollar that there is nothing on earth I can do in my life to change it, however good, kind and charitable I may be. I am either Elected or not. Jesus either wants me for a sunbeam, or he doesn't. It was decided before the big bang, there is precious little I can do about it now.
At the moment my biggest problem is to decide if God wants me to go to Australia next December to join Simon on a birding trip to Tasmania.
I am absolutely certain that if the bible was written with the knowledge and understanding that we have today, it wouldn't read the same. For one thing they wouldn't call a bat a bird.
Incidentally, I might add that even that water-boarding torture so beloved of President Bush would not make me believe that there were inter-continental swimming kangaroos that made it from Australia to the Middle East and back to be saved from a world-wide flood that is alleged to have taken place less than 4000 years ago. That is but just a blink ago in geological history, there would be evidence of it everywhere.
I'm afraid I really do consider religion to be mere superstition developed to keep the downtrodden in line. And I think it started long before the Middle Ages.
Maalie,
God has also promised that all who seek Him wll find Him when they search for Him with all their heart. (Jer. 29:13) That's all you have to do, Maalie and it will happen.
Moreover, in one of the strongest chapters on election in the Bible, Jesus still promised that "whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
Election doesn't let you off the hook, Maalie. Jesus invitation is real and open to all. In fact, Jesus seems to love to mix election and human responsiblity to come to Him together, as this text indicates well. He said, "...no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matt 11:27-30)
LLuther and Lorenzo
LLuther - I do not disagree with your theology, but I think that you are missing the point that Lorenzo and I are trying to make - God doesn't cause bad to happen. It is not as if He reaches down and says, "ahh, here in New Orleans I think I will wreck some havoc".
His permissive will certainly allowed Katrina to happen but He did not make it happen. This is is not inconsistent with a fallen creation behaving in a manner of all fallen things - nothing behaves in the manner we were originally created to behave in - fallen creation behaves exactly as it is - fallen, not always sheltering and nuturing as it was originally intended.
Permitting something to happen does not mean causing it to happen. He allows many bad things to happen though we do not know why. He also reaches down into human history and prevents much from happening that we rarely see or understand and even less often give Him credit for.
>God has also promised that all who seek Him wll find Him when they search for Him with all their heart.
Litl Luther: You make one huge assumption here, and that there is actually a God. I appreciate your immense knowledge of theology, and you in turn should appreciate my more modest understanding of the workings of the natural world resulting from a life-time's career in researching it and lecturing it in an academic environment.
You and others may, and do, quote tracts from the bible at me in all sincerity until Kingdom Come. However it still remains my experience and witness of the mainstream peer-reviewed scientific literature that leads me to conclude that the probability that things happened in the ways described in the bible is so small as to be out of the frame for consideration.
Now, if you were to offer me some evidence, even just a teensy weeny bit, that anything that has happened did happen in the way described in the bible, I would be much impressed. I'd be especially interested to learn more about those inter-continental swimming kangaroos I mentioned. Come now, only 4000 years ago - there must be some evidence out there you could point me to...
And I don't mean arguments of personal incredulity - e.g. "how could all this have happened without and almighty guiding hand" and so on, that is not evidence!
Simon
Whose song are you quoting - it sounds like something Keith Green would have written?
Again, God's permissive will. He did not create evil, He allowed evil to enter when pride first filled satan's heart such that he coveted the position that belonged to God only. God could not and did not create evil - there is no darkness in God, no evil, no tempting - He is nothing but Righteous and Holy.
Also, I will gently remind you that Dana is a visitor and to be treated with dignity and respect, not leered at. She also is a believer as well as a married womand and a young mom. I would suggest you stop the salacious comments before her husband comes and knocks your proverbial block off - or I may in the mean time!
Hi Susan,
You could well be right. I usually take a much more causative stance, but there is truth in what you say. I'm Reformed so I usually go with the Reformed position, like that articulated in the Westminster Confession: "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (3.1 God's Eternal Decree)
Now more Jewish stuff:
Traditionally the Jews believed that God gives the definition of any given word whenever God used that word for the first time in the Bible. I don’t know if this always holds true, but there might be some truth to this. For instance, look at the first time the word “love” is ever used in the Bible: “He said, ‘Take now your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.’” Genesis 22:2
If the Jews are right, God defined the word “love” in the contact of sacrificing ones only beloved son. In light of God giving His Son Jesus to be sacrificed for our sins, the Jewish way of defining the word love seems wonderfully appropriate.
>I'm Reformed so I usually go with the Reformed position,
Now surely you can see my point here! Everybody has their [position: "I believe this, this, and this, but not that, that and that!"; "Oh, but I believe that, that, and this, but not that and that".
You would think that the Word of God should be so unambiguously clear that everyone would adopt the same position and there would be no dispute over the "truth". Never two armies on opposing sides of a battle praying to the same God for a just and holy victory.
As I have opined aforewards, the bible can mean anything you want it to.
thanks halfmom:) the person you mentioned "friend of a friend" (drew) - i can't say that i know him, but if you say you were praying for him while he was in turkey, perhaps he and i were on the same trip, i went to turkey/israel a couple years ago and there were about 50 people, it's possible he was one of them.
simon, i am not sure if you are implying that my physical appearance means that i have nothing worthwhile to contribute and no authority with which to opine. i would hope in an open forum of ideas looks wouldn't matter.
but if your comments were meant in mere flattery, than i thank you for the compliment.
in the meantime and in response to your idea that darwinism is the best we've got, have you read The Dawkins Delusion? i'm not sure what the author looks like, but the ideas are more than worthwhile and authoritative.
halfmom - no worries, i love the openness of your blog, it's a wonderful thing to have out there.
:)
Dana, Simon means he fancies you!
>in the meantime and in response to your idea that Darwinism is the best we've got
Dana, it is the best available theory that explains the evidence. Of course theories themselves evolve as more and better evidence comes to light through observation and experiment. Of course the theory has moved on and become refined since Darwin published his epic Origin of Species and we now understand not only that Natural Selection actually does take place, but also the mechanism. The elucidation of the structure of nucleic acids, the genetic code and the description of whole genomes now effectively puts evolution as a process beyond doubt.
The Dawkins Delusion is of course just a load of quasi-scientific mis-information put about by the Creationists in a futile attempt to discredit the evidence. But evidence is evidence and is, and always will be, available for scrutiny in the peer-reviewed scientific literature. It isn't going to go away afraid, however much it is denied.
Incidentally, next year is the bicentenary of the genius biologist Darwin and a huge celebration is taking place in England. I have already booked my place and I look forward eagerly to hear Richard Dawkins (my hero!) giving his lecture.
i'm not sure that alister mcgrath - the author of Dawkins Delusion (once an athiest, with a doctorate in molecular biophysics) could be described as quasi-scientific and putting out mis-information.
and as far as peer-reviewed scientific literature, i'm sure Francis Collins has more than his share of peer reviewed literature out there - as director of the human genome project - and he notes this about Dawkins Delusion:
"McGrath dismantles the argument that science should lead to atheism, and demonstrates instead that Dawkins has abandoned his much-cherished rationality to embrace an embittered manifesto of dogmatic atheist fundamentalism."
Collins, by the way, is a christian.
halfmom, you're right - there is a friend of a friend on beloveds blog!
yes, i do have facebook - do you?
Well, that is an opinion, I do not disagree. I suppose I was referring more to Dawkins' excellent ground-breaking works explaining the process of natural selection and making the concept available to biology students and lay-persons alike (start for example with The Selfish Gene and progress from there).
I think what Dawkins feels so bitter about (and I haven't spoken to him so it is a guess) is that Superpower Leaders can lead their country into war "because they spoke to God" and that is why he probably regards fundamentalism as dangerous (as indeed I do).
The fact remains that natural selections remains the best available explanation for speciation and does not depend on an impossible notion that the world's biodiversity stemmed from what could be crammed into Noah's boat, or inter-continental swimming kangaroos, a mere 4000 years ago.
Of course I can't assert that it didn't happen that way (a truly omnipotent God could presumably do anything), only that it is vanishingly improbable that it happened that way, especially when we have a perfectly workable hypothesis that doesn't involve the supernatural.
I do re-assert however that there is a great deal of quasi-scientific mis-information put about by the Creationist publishers - after all it is huge business.
fundamentalism from any discipline (religious or other – and I would argue fundamentalism can come from any worldview) can always be dangerous, i appreciate your thoughts maalie. how about this – i will go and read Selfish Gene (admittedly I have not read it). i enjoy reading intelligent books, regardless of if i happen to agree with the theory. you read The Language of God by Francis Collins or Evolution and Christian Faith (Reflections of an Evolutionary Biologist) by Joan Roughgarded of Stanford. neither are quasi-scientific – though your assertion is correct, one of the pitfalls of free speech:)
that was dr. roughgarden, not roughgarded - forgive the typo
Dana, yes I am reasonably familiar with Joan Roughgarden's writing and I do have a lot of respect for her - who wouldn't respect someone with a doctorate in biology from Harvard. The difficulty I find with her is that she tries to embrace simultaneously two opposing philosophies. She seem to be like I was at University, on the horns of a dilemma in which her blood pump* wants to hang on to her traditional belief in God, whilst her brain's scientific logic and reasoning and appreciation of the evidence wants to accept the inevitability of Darwin's explanation of speciation through natural selection. As you will know she has received criticism for this approach from both creationists and scientists alike.
Also I find that her writing, in her attempt to appeal to the non-scientific reader, can be less than rigorous and glosses over concepts which need a more in-depth description.
Having said that, she does appeal to a large audience who find themselves in that position and if I was a cynical man I might hint that she had found a "market niche". A number of my University colleagues would probably describe themselves in that position: they lecture on biochemistry, microbiology, genetics and so on and don't really espouse the scriptures. However they will go to church on (some) Sundays, claim they are "Christians" but when you ask critically you find they are doing it for social or cultural reasons, rather than from any fundamental belief in an almighty everlasting omnipotent and omniscient heavenly father.
I don't know about Francis Collins but I will see what I can find. I have read C.S. Lewis and found it very unconvincing I'm afraid.
*You can ask Halfmom about that ;-)
Dana- mere flattery...lorenzo is right! :o)
Susan- the song was written by a singer called Steve Camp album Fire and Ice... great song. also does a great version of When I survey the wonderous cross.
Keith Green?- great man.. one I admire very much. His wife, is also a great woman. We communicated soon after Keiths death.
Anyway I am SO paranoid about my comments now- I thought I might have upset Ted, so I deleted it...
Maalie I find CS lewis unconvincing too...
Well, I am off ( like a bucket of prawns in the sun ) ahahahahaha ;o)
more song lyrics
Oh Lord take your plough to my fallow ground,
Let you blade dig down to the soil of my soul.
For I have become dry and dusty,
and I know there must be,
Riches down below.
I've been living,
In Laodicea
The fire that burnt bright,
I let it grow dim.
And the very one I swore that I would die for,
Was too soon to be forgotten,
As the world became my friend.
( Not bad for an atheist!!!)
be cool everyone
pps:- "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth" (Rev 3:14-16)
don't be "luke warm" guys.. be either "hot".
or like me "cold"
Your feelings are liquid at room temperature?
Being the "Southern" woman you are, are you up for some soul food down here?
Andrew - nope - that's what the candy coating is for - to keep the chocolate from melting. Besides you know me, I'm a cold, hard and inhospitable woman!
As to soul food - I thought it might be wise for me to cook for you so that we could put some leftovers in your freezer.
Doesn't sound like meal planning and cooking is your greatest strength! Besides - cookies can only take you so far, even if they have M&Ms or white raisins in them!
Simon - I like the words! Did you write them? If so, when? Although I don't think any digging down in my soul will find anything very good - just rocks unless the plow happens to hit a part that the Holy Spirit has inhabited!
Actually, I've been thinking about doing a post about that - in metaphor of course. We wouldn't want Maalie to be disappointed. No matter how old the field is, there are rocks that come up when you plow in the mountains from the part of the country where I grew up. We just carry them to the edge of the field and end up with a wall around after lots of year.
Ted is like LLuther - pretty non-offendable as are most guys - so the only one you have to worry about it me - and you know I'll let you know if something offends me - so lets leave it at that, shall we?
Thanks for your comments.
Simon, I'm not offended at all. I'm close to being one of those Anabaptists, the kind that turn the other cheek and bless those who curse me, etc. hehe.
Just kidding, as I know you weren't doing that. I have my bad moments and have had my bad times as well. So in all that, you should feel here at home!
By her comments, Dana has clearly proven herself to be more intelligent than attractive and she is a very beautiful woman.
Halfmom, your comments don't go up in ones and twos like most peoples', they go up in TENS!
I have noticed that it is the religious and political blogs that generate the most "interest".
Maalie writes:
"You would think that the Word of God should be so unambiguously clear that everyone would adopt the same position"
Your thinking it illogical Maalie. If the Bible was merely the script of the Terminator movie (like Simon’s example), then 10 people could study it for 10 days, figure out all it’s mysteries and then get bored and move on to something else. But the infinite God wrote the Bible. Why do you assume that finite man could come away from reading what is written by the infinite and not have different positions on the material? Even in Heaven, we could not possibly know all there is to know about God because He is infinite. No one can have perfect knowledge of an infinite being. To have such knowledge would prove Him less than infinite. That is why we will never grow tired of praising Him because for all eternity the greatest of who He is will ever become new and fuller to us. Maalie, respectfully, your presupposition is flawed. The fact that the unlimited God wrote the Bible, precludes perfect knowledge of it, and thus it precludes that Christians could come away with identical positions on everything written in it. To have perfect knowledge of the Bible would prove Him less than infinite. And therefore, there will always be different positions on various things in the Bible.
>The fact that the unlimited God wrote the Bible, precludes perfect knowledge of it
Ah, but you see Litl Luther, you are making the huge assumption that there exists an unlimited God who did that. I do not make that assumption. My experience and witness of the evidence obliges me to conclude that the probability of that is vanishing small, to the point where it is out of the frame for consideration. There are more parsimonious explanations available to account for how the things are the way they are.
(Incidentally I now have to leave for a couple of days,so please don't interpret my absence here as my inability, or unwillingness, to reply. I will be back...)
>The fact that the unlimited God wrote the Bible, precludes perfect knowledge of it, and thus it precludes that Christians could come away with identical positions on everything written in it.
I find this position absolutely ludicrous. Are you suggesting that your almighty everlasting heavenly father, omniscient to boot, incorporated within his "handbook for life on Earth" sufficient ambiguity that people would kill each other over different interpretations of it? That he planned in advance and knows that armies on opposing sides of a battle field would both be praying to him to sponsor a just and holy victory? he must be having a good laugh. That is perversity in the extreme. I find that notion absolutely untenable.
We all know that Simon is cold as ice! That's like he likes his beer. Over here Maalie likes his room temperature and I like mine tepid.
Wonder what that says about us?
Maalie,
You are reading too much into my words. I never said God purposely puts ambiguity into the Bible, only that we do not possess the wisdom to fathom all of God's mysteries and complexities. I'll use you as an example: You are an intelligent man. If you were to rattle off the reason you doubt the existence of God to a two year old, surely that child will not understand you, but that doesn't mean you spoke ambiguously. Therefore, and at a much greater level than the example above, God is so beyond finding out that we can only hope grasp new and wonder nuggets of knowledge about Him gradually.
Your comments about war have nothing to do with what I was saying. I refuse to blame God for the stupid things that false Christians have done in His name. The sinner is guilty for his sin—not God. Maalie, you have a knack for muddying beautiful things (I guess that was a backhanded compliment)
"..colorful, even attractive – the gracious Southern woman who smiles and befriends everyone and puts them at ease..."
Modest too!
Felicity
Halfmom, you describe yourself as a "scientist" which I find quite curious: I am also employed within the scientific community but I describe myself as a "microbiologist" since it is in that discipline that I gained my qualifications. Most of my colleagues would also describe their professional credentials as "biochemist, entomologist, cosmonaut etc..." rather than the rather general term scientist.
Out of curiosity would to expand on which branch of the sciences you are involved with,what your credentials are and why you prefer to call yourself simply "scientist".
regards
TCA
Welcome Felicity!
I'm not sure where you grew up - or when - but during the 50's in the South, women were raised to be gracious and conciliatory. We also grew up with a keen sense of social rules and morays, even though many were unspoken. The ability to observe the interactions of those around me and the learned social and peacemaking skills have come in quite handy over the years. It was of my personal and professional reputations in these areas that I spoke. You will note that I also indicated that the candy coating on the M&M is by far the smallest part of the whole.
Welcome TCA! Interestingly, when I clicked on your profile what I found was “accounting”, not microbiology. I should be fascinated as to how those fit together!
I use the generic term “scientist” to describe the way my mind works, not my fields of training. Additionally, my closest and dearest friends are not scientists and what I do for a living has little relevance to them; so, we just leave it as “scientist”. My work is just that, my work; it is not my life or who I am as a person.
However, if it makes you feel better to know, I have an earned Master’s degree in Mineral Metabolism, my PhD is in Nutritional Sciences, my area of specialty in Nutritional Biochemistry. My dissertation dealt with the effects of omega-3 fatty acids on peripheral immune function and vitamin E status.
I became quite interested in how diet and aging affect brain immune function during my dissertation studies but had no formal Neuroscience training. So, I directed my postdoctoral studies in that direction, beginning with two years of postdoctoral study in Neurochemistry. I then accepted a Senior NIA Fellowship and trained a further 3 years in Neurodegeneration and Aging. Then I trained an additional two years in Neural Transplant and Repair. I am largely self-taught in neuroimmunology, which is a great disadvantage for I am always scurrying about to understand what is a new and exciting area of science! Since I started my doctoral training at 40 – and you can add the numerous years of specialized training – you will not find it difficult to believe that at 54, I have just finished my 5th year as an Assistant Professor in a Chicago area medical school. I go up for promotion next year to Associate Professor.
Did you want to see my vitae as well?
IT'S ALL THE LLAMA'S FAULT!
Yes Maalie, the comments continue to astound me nevery time I log on. But, we shall attribute the initiation of such lengthy conversations to the dear Lorenzo as she came, brought you, who brought Simon and I assume TCA came through Simon? I do not know of Felicity. That was the beginning of it all.
I think Don Sands came from Even So, who is a friend of mine, and Don Sands brought LitlLuther. Andrew and Ted are originals - Dan is new and from a mutual friend between Andrew and I.
It begins to look like 8 degrees of separation - doesn't it?
Lorenzo - I agree with Simon - beer should be very, very cold.
I prefer mine poured into a chilled mug on top of a few ounces of lime juice and ice - and salt about the rim!
Wow! What a comprehensive and highly impressive answer; you are obviously a well qualified and experienced scientist.
Curiously (for me) your reply raises more questions than answers as I always struggle to understand how individuals such as yourself, who operate in a field where evidence and proof are the operating currency, reconcile the scientific ethos with the delusion that there is a 'god', where no tangible evidence and/or proof can be offered.
TCA
PS Thanks for spotting the 'profession' anomaly - we are clearly NOT 'bean-counters'! It must be a default - I have changed it to 'transportation' which I trust meets with your approval.
PPS We did not 'come through Simon' - why he could hardly swallow us!
He appears to me to me an ignorant and boorish lout.
TCA
TCA - transportation? vectors perhaps to go along with micro? now I am intrigued as to what you actually do and what your (basic) credentials are!
You also use "we" - does that mean that Felicity belongs with you?
I assumed Simon only because of the cycling. So how did you get here then?
There is more to Simon than meets the eye. He is Maalie's friend, so that gives him some credibility in my book as Maalie is my friend, as is his sister Lorenzo. She is a dear!! - well, of the heart variety, not the animal one - afterall, she is a llama!
My guess is that Simon, justifiably, has some things in life he is bitter about and the bitterness comes out most often late at night as some of his comments are quite civil and even thoughtful and sweet. (Sorry to talk about you mate as though you were not there - I know that you are about Simon - and this is just my hypothesis so feel free to correct me) He also is an amazing baritone, takes lovely photos and loves birds - all redeeming qualities in my book.
So, TCA - I welcome you to our dysfunctional little family. I have not forgotten your main point - I am thinking how to express myself and to tell you what I believe without it sounding quite hoaky!
Aw thanks Susan for the lovely things you said about me! I'm blushing.
I agree with TCA. Simon sounds a thug!
Lil-Luther, Triston, is a good friend, and we go way back as members of the same EFCA church. Though this church is Triston's sending church, which help send him to Nepal, I have had to leave, and am at another church. It's long story, but the Lord is faithful, even when we are not. What a Savior we have.
Looking forward to Palm Sunday, to remember how our Lord Jesus Christ was just a few days from His brutal sacrificail, and voluntary death, which is also the redemption of the world from it's sin, for all who cry out to Christ for forgiveness.
Have a great weekend Susan, and all.
HMakaS,
"We" since we are an Association, not an individual.
It is a rather leisurely Association primarily intent on FORGETTING our various occupations, therefore categorization is redundant to all intent and purpose in this regard(however, I was using my personal occupation as an illustration in my original question).
I do not presume to bore you with details of my occupation and credentials.
We have no Felicity in our ranks.
How did we get here? The TCA moves in mysterious ways...
TCA
TCA I understand, "HMakaS" I do not - and I come up with what looks like Turkish when I google it.
Now you have peaked my scientific curiosity and left me answerless - what a runcible creature you are!
Don - thanks for Triston - I have enjoyed having him here! I have been so intent on our trip South for Easter next week I had quite forgotten that we have Palm Sunday this week.
That means it will be Friday soon - but that's ok because Easter Sunday's coming!!
TCA- ( giggle) your comment make me laugh mate! just because I like cold beer!! ( LOL!)
Susan- not bitter at all in fact "relieved"... I have to be either full "on" or full "Off" there is not luke warm..
So, rather than live the hypocracy- I quit. and feel better for it. ( smile)
BTW Susan- I have hemochromatosis so that might interest you in terms of your science!
Ferrtin level of 4300 ( not a misprint) when Diagnosed at 40 years of age... saturation of 98.9%
Doctor said they would get me to 50 years of age but I am so "damaged" they cannot be certain I will get past 50.
I have had treatment (600ml) of blood letting every week for 2 years, every 2 weeks for 2 years and now once a month...
I cannot eat anything with iron in it nor raw seafood eg oysters..
BTW TCA occupation is winding his Aussie mate up! by giving him warm beer ;o)
Hi Simon,
Actually, my master's thesis was on iron toxicity, so I am rather familiar with your disease.
I am very sorry - that is quite late to be diagnosed. Have you arthritis or liver problems? Certainly the orange juice I am guzzling for my silly virus wouldn't be good for you at all, although neither would alcohol if you liver is damaged.
I suppose you are right, it is better to admit to being cold that to pretend to be hot and only be lukewarm in reality - but I wouldn't choose "cold" over "hot" ever (except, of course for beer - it is not my favorite beverage at all and I find it only tolerable cold!).
Now - based on my bitterness hypothesis, I was betting on a woman who had, as the American country music songs say, "had done you wrong". Although my hypothesis is only built on a few small things you mentioned - such as arguments on the way to church - sounds marital to me.
So, now you see I have a rather active imagination!
Simon says: Have a cold beer!
Simon says: Watch the Terminator.
Simon says: Hop on one leg. Have a beer!
Gotcha!
Susan:
With you having expertise in "omega-3 fatty acids" can you tell me, is it true that the human brain develops almost entirely from omega-3? A doctor told us that, so my wife has been eating a lot of Salmon and the like. I want my child to be intelligent enough to debate Maalie!
PS: Don was the first person to really disciple me. He had a huge impact in my life.
TCA: You talk about Simon, but I think your comments about him make you appear equally rude.
lost my enitre reply!
Luther TCA are very good friends of mine- they are being runcible thats all.
Susan:- Arthritis very bad in hands, feet, knees and I have osteparosis in the left hip. Am supposed to take steroids and pain killers regularly- I do neither.
My attitude is-
it hurts if I sit and do nothing,
it hurts if i move and do somthing.
So better to do somthing!
Life is short and I still ride 200km a week.
I also work 70 hours a week in 2 jobs.
Late at night I am at my worse ( physically irritable)
No, I should not have a beer- but I am rebelious. If I did everything the doctors suggest I would sit in cotton wool and stare out the window. They do not like me riding my Mountain bike because If I feel off the hip would shatter.
In recent months there has been a shift in the liver and I have to have the ultra sounds every 3 months...
the only food I do not eat is fatty or rich in iron...or combinations that encourage the absorbtion of iron.
But I donto take it too seriously. Doctors said I was the worst they and seen...
they sakwed me how I felt_ I said " oh- a bit fatigued" they said what did I do- I replied "oh I just rode my bike further"
"I only came if for a check up because I could not ride up one of the hills which I though was odd"
Your last line? More a reflection on just how people behave in the car- then "flip" with "god-speak" when at church..
Simon - do you play the children's game "Simon Says" in Australia? LLuther's joke will not make much sense if you don't - and it is actually a rather funny joke!
ps sorry for the typos
Simon - any consolation - I lost an entire comment to LLuther too so now need to type it all over.
A flip-flop when in church versus in real life - not a true believer is that is a consistent pattern! It is slow progress but Christ changes us from the inside out. Surely, I am not where I need to be or who I need to be, but oh my goodness, I am so much different than I was - to the point of, "I was blind but now I see"!
LLuther - let me try this again - and I shall copy it before I hit submit as I lost the entire comment a few minutes ago.
Yes, omega-3 fatty acids (n-3 fa is the common abbreviation) are very important in brain development, especially in utero and early postnatal periods as all the supply must come from maternal blood/milk. Then enzymes that help make the longer chain ones that are in the brain are not developed for quite a while - so for in utero and infants the longer are considered conditionally essential whereas they can be made from the shorter chain n-3s as we age.
The catch (no pun intended) is that the n-3's actually come from cold water algae that the fish eat - so if you are eating pond raised fish you aren't getting what you think you are! So, check the source of the fish - if fresh water/deep water is not available, the purified capsules are fine too.
Simon - I left you a comment on your professional blog (it is amazing) - did you get it?
OK - so I read about one job(s) - what is the second?
I had a feeling that those were cycling friends of yours -
yes! Regarding the singer? her name is Regina Spektor. Nice song.
"Simon says" yes I got it- and I knew Luther was being funny :o)
I work 5 days a week as an auctioneer in motor vehicles etc..
and saturday/sunday plus week nights as a real estate auctioneer
I found a sample of your singing somewhere in the www - amazing too!
oh- yes! thanks.
you can have a cd if you like. I give them away now days... etc.
Okay, this is the definition I found for runcible:
1871, a nonsense word coined by Edward Lear; used especially in runcible spoon "spoon with three short tines like a fork," which first took the name 1926.
Do you apply a different meaning to it?
Wow. What a thread. I'll have to take more time on this blog to really see what's going on, better, with all this conversation. And maybe add my two cents worth, a little more often.
Cheers, everyone!
LLuther - I use runcible because Maalie uses runcible to describe himself sometimes - as does his sister Lorenzo - Mischievous doesn't quite describe what I mean - it's more like the Southern phrase I might have used for one of my naughty, but very, very bright boys who had pulled a big one over on mom, "you little skunk, you". Maalie can be mischievous - and a little more somehow!
I am very curious, Susan. What helps or books are you using to learn Greek? Exciting. Maybe more to it, in a way than English, but I'm not all that sure it's as difficult. It's more consistent, less exceptions to the rules, I think.
But some will swear up and down that you get more out of it than how I was taught. Koine Greek in which the New Testament was written has been found on papyri that is simply things like household, domestic lists and simple notes of people of that time, common, ordinary language.
But I should know more as I've talked myself into taking my Greek New Testament to church, and I think I'm going to pick out one book to work on for now- leaning toward 2 Corinthians, but maybe 1 Peter which was the first book we worked on reading in seminary. Or Romans, I really want to work on that. Or Luke-Acts. Really all of them, as I think about it. But maybe 2 Cor to start with; seems stuck in my head today.
And what copy of the Greek New Testament do you have, Susan? I have the United Bible Societies fourth revised edition of 1993, what has been at least the most popular source for evangelical pastors. Scholars have another source which spins out new editions too quickly.
Of course you can get it on the Internet, as well.
I had to delete a duplicate comment.
Ltl Luther, I think Calvinism has much going for it, just like other expressions of the faith. I'm an admirer of many things from Calvin, a genuius, and it's quite doxological. Even if my expression of the faith or belief differs. I live in possibly the Calvinist center of the United States, near Calvin College and Holland, Michigan- and the tulip festival. Can't wait till it gets here, though even then it can be cold, though the tulips like it on the chilly side.
Hi Susan! Thanks for visiting my blog. :) I answered your comment; just wanted to let you know...
Post a Comment