Another quote from “Running Scared: fear, worry, and the God of rest” by Edward T. Welch,
“Any interest anyone has in Jesus Christ is not natural to us. It is stirred by God himself. Does it make any sense that God would arouse such an interest in the kingdom but exclude you from it?”
It just reminded me of a conversation that my friends Dianne, Maalie and Lorenzo were having on my blog one day.
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Susan I have just been reading your last two posts and I want to say something about the quote:
perfect love casts out fear for fear involves punishment.
I love this phrase so much and in the past it kept me going though some very tough times. BUT, how do the writers' of Bluecollar's blog reconcile this passage? Their talk is all about Hell, Lakes of Fire, Punishment and so forth. They have already consigned Maalie to Hell and at times me too.
Is this really the way to either get converts or to boost flagging spirituality?
Love and hugs,
Lorenzo.
I do not know what they would say Lorenzo.
I read the passage to be written to believers, those who have already accepted Jesus Christ as Savior and are therefore saved from an eternity in hell and need have no fear of punishment. They are now (even when they do not feel so) in an eternal, restored and secure relationship with God through Christ.
Those who refuse God's offer of Christ - I would think that they have much reason to be afraid of punishment.
However, who can say who God is wooing to Himself and how and when - only God can - and only He is the judge - only His opinion matters. This is why I thought this quote so arresting - that any interest at all indicates that God is wooing - and why would He woo if he would refuse - it makes no sense.
>you must, at some point, disregard the second law of thermodynamics. Evolutionary theory requires that things move towards order, not away from it.
But Halfmom, that is an appalling misappropriation of that Law! It states simply that the entropy of the Universe tends to a maximum. But you can have local "apparent" reversals if there is an energy supply to power them. Thus, a solution of a salt (random molecules of solute in solution, high entropy) can crystalise into highly organised crystals (low entropy - about as low as you can get!), the energy source being the latent heat of evaporation of the solvent (ultimately from the environment). Likewise, random molecules of CO2, water, minerals (high entropy) can be organised into a tree or rose bloom (low entropy) with the appropriate input of energy (obviously solar energy here). There is nothing unusual about randomness in nature becoming organised. But it is at the expense of a NET increase of entropy to the universe and, for earthly things, this means the sun using up its energy and itself gaining in entropy. (I have lectured in thermodynamics).
I think the basic difference is that creationists hold the basic premise from the outset that the bible is the one and only true explanation. Scientists don't: they observe and try to find an explanation to account for what they observe. Science (as a discipline, not individual scientists) has no preconception of what the answer is; Creationists, however, do. When evidence is presented to contradict their beliefs, they need to discredit it with pseudo-scientific burble about entropy and micro-evolution (there is a whole literature industry based on it).
>As usual, his understanding of life and its difficulties, human frailty and the true nature of God
How can anybody understand the true nature of God?
>I love Welch’s little axiom, “when in doubt, repent” as I find it to be so true
Now this has long puzzled me. Unless you are a psychopath (or some such) what actually are you repenting FOR? Original sin was predetermined by God; how can an almighty everlasting heavenly father continue to threaten us with punishment for a sin that he predetermined for us? It just doesn't add up. Moreover, I was taught that Jesus was sacrificed as a ransom to atone for our sins. Did he die to "save us all", or not? It seems there is a bit of double-jeopardy going on here; Jesus died to wash away our sins but we STILL have to repent for them.
Remember also it was the SNAKE that God cursed, not Adam or Eve. The woman's punishment was that childbirth would be painful and Adam's that he must toil. That was atonement for disobeying the Lord, there is absolutely nothing in Genesis about perpetual sin.
The idea of perpetual repentance is an idea dreamed up by clerics to maintain control: "No matter how good you try to be, it is not good enough. Pray harder, be even more submissive and put more of your income into the collection plate".
Maalie,
I do believe it is the argument you seek.(:-)
Anyway, a quick comment, I don't have much time right now. I'll return!
You said, **what actually are you repenting FOR? **
In my understanding, you do not repent FOR something/sin/wrong choice/bad behavior, whatever tag you want to put on it. (my tag would be sin)
You repent OF or FROM.
When you sin/make a wrong choice/etc, you repent - meaning you are choosing to actively/conciously turn away from/ your sin/your wrong behavior/your bad choice/again whatever tag you put on it. Some are able to be free from their particular sin/wrong choice/bad behavior at once, others repeat their sin/wrong choice/bad behavior, therefore need to continually repent of/from - choose again to turn away from.
God's grace is a beautuiful thing, so is His forgiveness in our missteps.
Dianne
Lorenzo,
I don't think it is fair to ask Susan to explain how Bluecollar would reconcile this passage. I certainly wouldn't want to answer for them! (:-)
I do believe there is a hell, but I also believe in God's grace. I also believe that the only way you will experience God's grace is through Jesus. The question you should be asking is "Who is Jesus to me?" Cease to care what Bluecollar thinks and search your own heart for the answer.
I'm curious - what does "perfect love casts out fear for fear involves punishment" mean to you?
Dianne
>I do believe it is the argument you seek.(:-)
Dianne: Partly, but I would prefer the word "discussion". But I am also genuinely intrigued to understand how another scientist can believe such things as how the laws of science were "bent" to account for the garden of Eden and Noah's flood at such an incredibly recent period in the earth's history (post-neolithic).
How can I possibly attempt to "search my own heart for the answer" when a more trustworthy organ (my brain) reasons that all the evidence that I (and the scientific community) have observed for lifetime does not require the intervention of the supernatural.
Dianne, sorry to come back, must look at these:
>n my understanding
EXACTLY! Each person has their "own understanding" and there is no cohesive view, no consensus on the interpretation of the bible. You only have to look at the bitterness that exists between the Calvanists and "the rest", or protestants and Catholics in Ireland to see how "understandings" differ between factions.
>When you sin/make a wrong choice/etc, you repent - meaning you are choosing to actively/consciously turn away from/ your sin/your wrong behaviour/your bad choice/again whatever tag you put on it.
Yes, I agree. I would do that to the person(s) I have offended, and if serious, the State might require a exact a punishment also. Personally I think that is more satisfactory than repenting to some mythical supernatural source who might already have condemned me and will continue to threaten punishment however much I repent! It is truly laughable!
Dianne:
I know Maalie likes a good argument if the subject is interesting enough, and I know he bangs on a bit about bats and birds, koala bears, polar bears and talking snakes, but I do see a logic in what he is saying about repentance.
It WAS the snake that was cursed, not mankind and I do feel that we can never reach the total submission that we seem to be expected to attain. I don't agree that it is all for money in the plate, or at least not in the church where I go. I do know people however who have impoverished themselves because their church demands a 'tythe'.
My understanding of 'original sin' is the inherent capability of each one of us to commit appalling acts of treachery and cruelty. Think concentration camps, crucifictions, war, nucleur bombs, Spanish Inquisition, not suffering a witch to live, homophobia, etc. et6c. We are all capable of doing really evil things if pushed enough, or if suffering from mass hypnosis.
Sorry if you didn't like me mentioning Bluecollar, but they have set themselves up as authorities of Hell, Heaven and God generally. I find them really confusing because it is all contrary to what I am taught. When I suggested that my priest is also my Spiritual Director I felt I received scorn. I just find it really difficult to reconcile their beliefs with the Jesus we read about in the Gospels.
Maalie,
When I use the word heart I am referring to the part of you/me that feels, loves, hurts. So when I say "heart" this is what I mean so we don't get hung up on the meaning of particular words. So when I asked you to "search you own heart" this is the place I was talking about, the place where you experience love, joy, heartbreak, etc.
I only have a moment to respond. I will be back to consider the rest of what you said.
Happy birthday to my little guy. He has enetered the world of double digits today! Thge big 10!
Praying,
Dianne
Maalie,
You said** repenting to some mythical supernatural source who might already have condemned me and will continue to threaten punishment however much I repent**
I don't believe God is some mythical being, supernatural yes, but mythical no. Once we have repented God does not condemn nor does He threaten to to continue punishment, once you have repented and asked forgievness, forgiveness is granted, clean slate. No continual condemnation nor threat of punishment.
Lorenzo,
You can mention Bluecollar, it doesn't bother me. I don't agree with thier slanted view. There is a balance of Grace and Truth and I think they are a little off balance.
Gotta go! Sorry!! I will try to continue later on today!
Dianne
Dianne – how can the wee one be 10?? It does not seem possible that he can be so old when I have not aged at all since we first met!!
I love your reference to one of my favorite verses, "there is now, therefore, no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus!"
Maalie, you are right! Many disagree, and factions form that hate to the point of murder; but scripture tells us that this is to be expected and why. This truth appears clearly in the teaching of the parables and Jesus reiterated it when He said that some folks who arrive at the final judgment will be turned away even though they professed His name. The problem, they professed but they did not possess His Spirit, they did not know Him personally or belong to Him! These do sow dissention, discord, hatred, false doctrine, murder and more, and they do it within the church as well as across denominational lines.
God wanted a people that would choose to be in unbroken relationship with Him, so He made two. He gave them the ability to choose to obey Him and remain in relationship or to disobey and break the relationship. He knew before He made them that they would sin and it would separate them from Him. No longer could He have fellowship with them because His holy character could not tolerate the presence of sin. Sin always results in death, death of the spiritual relationship and eventual death of the body. It also has far reaching consequences as all of creation suffers to this day because it fell along with Adam and Eve.
But go figure, even knowing all of this, He still wanted a relationship with a people who would choose Him, so He made a way, before it was needed, to bridge the gulf that sin would put between us and Him. He came to earth to live among us, fully God and fully man, yet without a sin nature. This man paid the debt that sin required, a perfect blood sacrifice, with His own life. His sacrifice was acceptable to the Father and it ripped down the barriers that stood impenetrable between God and man, opening the possibility of restored relationship. Amazingly, the debt was paid once for all and never has to be paid again because the sacrifice Himself lives forever; the gift it is offered freely to all those who would come.
The catch – the payment must be attributed to your account; your individual debt must be settled for once and all. How do you appropriate this offer of substitutionary payment –acknowledge that you owe a debt you can never pay, acknowledge that a there is One who willingly offers to cover your debt with His perfect payment, request and accept the payment, welcoming the earnest given as a seal that the transaction is done – for once and for all.
Am I, as Maalie says, stuck with “original sin that was predetermined by God”? Is it fair that I am held accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve so that I owe a debt I cannot pay? Yes, actually I think it is, for I know that had it been me there instead of her, I’d have probably grabbed that apple sooner and started the downhill process even faster. The sin for each of us is always rebelliousness; disobedience towards a holy and perfect God causes an individual debt must be settled individually for each of us.
Again I cannot believe the lengths some people will go to to deny/distort/discredit the real evidence that is all there around us for all to see. But then, there are none so blind as those who WON'T see!
Oh dear, it is obvious that I am not amongst the elect.
and yet you're still here with us - the "denying, distorting and discrediting" ones – did you actually read this post? I tend to agree with Welch.
Honestly Maalie - I would think that incredulity with those of us you consider to be, shall we say, less than rational, wouldn't keep you around for so long - or is it my good looks that draws you back?
LOL! Well, that's for me to know and you to wonder :-)
Mainly its because you respond in a way that demands a reply....and so it goes on...
I have been banned from Bluecollar, but you are gracious enough to humour me here. But I promise I have almost got the information I am seeking and I will return to my studies on evolutionary adaptations on European woodland bird species and part-time Anthropology very soon!
Humm, she says with a wondering smile.....
And here you may stay as long as you like!
What evolutionary adaptations have you found in these birds - do you have pictures - remember that I love birds and especially like to see pictures!
Bearing in mind our recent interactions on the heart as a metaphor, I thought you might like this:
A cardiologist died and was given an elaborate funeral. A huge heart covered in flowers stood behind the casket during the service. Following the eulogy, the heart opened, and the casket rolled inside. The heart then closed, sealing the doctor in the beautiful heart forever. At that point, one of the mourners burst into laughter. When all eyes stared at him, he said, "I'm sorry, I was just thinking of my own funeral... I'm a gynecologist."
The proctologist fainted.
Oh Maalie - you runcible creature, you! That is quite funny!
Brilliant Maalie!
What a great quote from Welch...and what a wonderful discussion you have going here.
Halfmom: you can see a bit about my ecological research here.
The Marsh Tit is one of several species in this group I am studying, with particular reference to their survival rates, and habitat requirements.
Marsh Tits are very closely related to your Black-capped Chickadee but the two evolved into separate species from a common ancestors when our continents drifted apart by plate tectonic activity
Susan, you are right that it is not "natural" for any of our fallen race to seek Jesus Christ. "The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor. 2:14). There is nothing more spiritual than the Gospel of Jesus Christ and thus, there is nothing more foreign to the person without God's Spirit than the Gospel. They will not seek Christ unless God does a work of regeneration in the person. Jesus made this fact clear when He said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him". The meaning is no one is "able", no one is "capable" of coming to Jesus unless God draws him, and the word draw is much stronger than a simple wooing. The same word is used for dragging a net full of fish to shore, dragging your enemy into court, pulling a knife from its sheath, etc. God must grab ahold of us and pull us to Himself to get us sinners to turn to Christ.
Maalie, you are mistaken about the curse. Child birth and toiling were not the only curses put on mankind. Spiritual death \ separation from God took place that very day and that same death still remains in us all (Eph. 2:1) until we come to Him who is life itself--Jesus Christ.
>The meaning is no one is "able", no one is "capable" of coming to Jesus unless God draws him
Ho hum, then I am certainly doomed to swim for eternity in that lake of fire. Incidentally, do the scriptures give us any clue as to where it might be? What is the fuel sourse? Petrol? And the oxidising agent? Oxygen maybe?
>that same death still remains in us all until we come to Him who is life itself--Jesus Christ.
I don't believe it. An almighty heavenly father wouldn't continue to threaten us with punishment for something we hadn't actually consciously done ourselves, especially as he sacrificed his only begotten son in order that we might all be saved.
I have to confess, Halmom, you are rather good-looking, aren't you?
Maalie, I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Sorry - a bad typo!
litl-Luther - welcome and thanks for the comment.
I guess I'd never looked up the actual Greek for "draw" in that verse. I love the image of fish flopping around trying to get out of the net and being drawn in anyway!
Certainly some come protesting all the way - or perhaps like I did, as a fish that was just too weary with life to fight the tug on my heart any longer.
Maalie dear, as to your comment: "An almighty heavenly father wouldn't continue to threaten us with punishment for something we hadn't actually consciously done ourselves, especially as he sacrificed his only begotten son in order that we might all be saved."
1) but we all have actively, consciously sinned - all of us fall short of the glory of God - there are none with excuse
2) yes, it was an extravagant gift, wasn't it - to pour out the life of his only son knowing that only some would respond - and yet, somehow it was worth it to God to provide the sacrifice and to the Son to willingly go through with it.
Maalie,
all I know about hell - at least the eternal kind, not the bits I have lived in here on earth - is that there is eternal separation from God.
the impenetrable gulf that separates its inhabitants from God sets up a chronic spiritual thirst that living water will never quench
Maalie,
Perhaps you would do well to look at the death of Christ from a different vantage point. Instead of thinking that Jesus' death proves God loves us too much to threaten us with punishment, consider that the death of Christ actually proves the severity of our sin. The only way God could restore relationship with us was by sacrificing His most beloved Son. Why do you think the Bible gives two such extreme alternatives: Heaven and Hell? Sin is that bad. Sin deserves eternal consequences. The death of Christ should convince us all that God will not allow sin to remain unpunished. It will either be punished on His Son for all who come to Jesus or the consequences will be laid upon us personally if we reject Him. The fact that God would go to such extreme measures to rescue us should terrify anyone who rejects His offer of rescue. Don't think that Jesus suffered for us because you or I were so worthy of it. Not at all! Jesus died because we are all worthy of damnation. Please don't reject God's offer of rescue.
Lorenzo some demoninations argue/believe that the lake of fire etc really is a description of a Jewish rubish tip.
By that I mean waste is thrown onto it where a fire consumes it. the fire never goes out...because rubbish is continually being added. It does not mean the item of rubbish is never really burnt...
However, I think a lot of faiths like to push the " you will forever burnt alive" i.e as if it was gods will to torture us forever for being sinners....
However just the thought of being shown heaven, then being cast away would be enough.
So, the "eternal flames of hell" may infact just be that, and nothing more.....
So if you are a believer your choice is heaven or nothing.....
I choose nothing! :o)
luther:- what exactly are we being rescued from?
I have nothing to be rescued from. I have a great home, great family, great country , fresh food, fresh water, great friends, and a great job. I think I am ok too...I work hard, and do not injure/hurt/steal/ etc...
I do not "fight" a sin nature... or any of that crap that seems to be labeled onto people.
All this talk of "terror" and eternal burning/torture.. might work on uneducated people in the third world or people who do not like themselves, or the weak minded but really....
Its as if you are seeking to pass acountability for your actions onto 3rd person ie When I am "bad" the devil made me do... When I am good jesus helped me do it...
its just crap. 100%
As I said, I worked for churches and was high up in it.... (what a giggle!!)
Watch Steve MArtins "Leap of faith" great film! ahahahahah
Lets talk about "riches in heaven"
a great line for those fools who believe in the properity doctrine. Or what about the pentacostal movement, or the nutters who are Armish,etc or the Catholics who burnt and tortured people because they thought they were witches..
I have never met one single christian who really followed the teachings of jesus. not one.
" for all have fallen short of the glory of god.." and in that very line is the admission that it does not work.....
You know what? I have met thieves who were better than any "asumed christian I ever met"
(funny!! isn't that what jesus did instead of mixing with the pharasiees??)
ahahahah!
Having said that. I respect your hobby, just as you should respect other human beings...( rahter than judge them)
Simon - your comment, "However just the thought of being shown heaven, then being cast away would be enough." is dead on.
One day everyone will acknowledge heaven and it's creator before some are cast away - and that is hell enough for anyone, separated from God and His kingdom.
And Simon, my dear, do please remember that when you make statements such as, "All this ... might work on uneducated people in the third world or people who do not like themselves, or the weak minded but really....", you are including me in the list as well - and I am neither uneducated, nor weak-minded - or self-loathing nor in a 3rd world country.
>Perhaps you would do well to look at the death of Christ from a different vantage point.
But why should I? That is the difficulty, isn't? When you see the Calvinists and Armenian's arguing bitter arguments between each other, you realise it is all down to a matter of *interpretation*. There seems to be no coherent position on what the bible means: I am not the first to observe that it can mean anything you want it to.
So I would be grateful not to be exhorted to change my viewpoint. I might just as easily ask you to change yours.
Susan:- I merely put forward a point, (that I do not acknowledge), re hell/heaven if you argue from the viewpoint of god, heaven, hell existing.
I do not believe any of it.
So my point that it is for the weak minded etc stands..its faith based on "need"
the lack of real relationship in someones life, the lack of self worth, loneliness, self doubt, that the world or life you have is worthless..that surely there MUST be something better..., someone better, A perfect life after this one...having been let down by those around you .. seeking a creator who "never" lets you down.
People cling to this "faith" like a life raft.. living no life in victory, never moving forward, only relying on "feelings" and warm fuzzies...
Looking for preachers who define who they (those in the congregation) are...
BUT,
What we really need are people who live in victory,... doers.. those that get out there and make a real difference...
Not people who can quote reams of rubbish from a book written thousands of years ago- inaccurate, fashioned by men hundreds of years after the event.
We have moved on... sadly many have not...
Yes I am right about the rubbish dump and what i said.....because I can write/read/quote all the nonsense people soak up.
Now having said all that_ give me science, reason, and the truth that we are just carbon and chemicals, no more or less important than a tree or a bug.....
BUT- if faith makes you a better person, peace loving, kind , considerate, slow to anger,
good for you.
I agree with Maalies arguement 100% "litl Luther"
wow! what a pride filled blog name....
Ooooo Simon!
>People cling to this "faith" like a life raft...
Simon, yes I agree that this appears to be true in many cases. Either that or indoctrination (remember the Jesuits' edict about "give me a child").
There is also the other point you have made elsewhere about religion being an "industry". There is a huge vested interest in keeping the faithful hooked (in the same way as tobacco companies target the young to get addicted) and I don't think religion is far off this. There is a huge publication industry, for one, putting out misinformation about evolution etc., and generally resorting to quasi-science to discredit established and verified scientific evidence.
I do have a personal conflict about the genuine charitable activity that goes on in the name of Christ, that cannot be denied. But you can still be charitable without restoring to invoking the supernatural for your motivation.
All the name Litl-Luther means is that I can put my foot in my mouth with the best of them and be an insensitve jerk to people at times, like he could be. If that is being prideful, so be it. That's me. It is just a nickname Christian friends attached to me years ago and it has stuck. Do you have a nickname, Simon?
A lot of talk has been made about Calvinists, Catholics, etc. and how bad they all are--how many Christians are worse than thieves. The Bible says "Taste and see; the Lord is good." It never says Christians are good. It is Jesus that I point people to, not to sinners saved by grace like myself.
Simon, in 100 years, will you still have your "great home, great family, great country , fresh food, fresh water, great friends, and a great job"? You'll be a dirt popsicle and perhaps a few fading memories of you will remain. This life is but a vapor, dude. You're here today and gone tomorrow. And then what? Do you know the answer to that question? I do. Do you know the meaning of life? I do, by God's grace. Is that prideful of me to be so certain? ....BTW: If you need a nickname, I don't mind if you use dirt popsicle.
Halfmom, don't you think there is such a thing as "absolute beauty" then?
>Do you know the meaning of life?
There isn't one. We have to assign our own meanings. We are but a temporary store of solar energy in biochemical macromolecules that will eventually be dissipated into the universe as entropy. To suppose there is more than this is sheer arrogance (or desperation) by humankind.
I might hope that the minerals and nutrients that now comprise my body may be recycled in an interesting way (I could be buried under a sapling , for example) but I suppose it is too fanciful to suppose that my bones will be fossilised so that some archaeologist may uncover me in millennia to come.
Then why go on living, Maalie? Simon? If we are "no more or less important than a tree or a bug," we squash bugs all the time; why not just get squashed or used to build someone else a nice coffee table? How come you don't just kill yourself? What's the point in living? Do you enjoy the arthritis, backpain or whatever malady you may have? What is the point of going on in your godless worldview?
You might squash bugs Luther, but certainly I don't. Although a Catholic, I also have Buddhist leanings as their philosophy is so brilliant especially Ahisma or the non-harm of any living creature.
And please do not use words like 'dude' and 'jerk'. We find those words very offensive in Britain.
>Do you enjoy the arthritis, backpain or whatever malady you may have?
litl-luther, if only you knew about the life-long "malady" form which Simon suffers, and the courageous way in which he is dealing with it, you might have phrased this somewhat differently. Was Luther tactless too?
Yes Maalie - I'm afraid the original Luther was rather tactless and "in your face"
LitL - no more dirt popsicle comments or antagonist ones either - no allowed here! I will ask you to consider Eph 4:29 as you write your responses.
Lorenzo, thank you for pointing out what words are offensive in other cultures - funny to call us other cultures, isn't it - but I suppose we are! Now, I actually have answered to "dude" when a teenager I was painting a mural with addressed me that way (his mother was also painting and almost fainted), so clearly I do not find it offensive. Here in the states it is sort of a "hey you" comment. Perhaps you should email me and tell me what those words mean in the UK - if they are offensive, I'd rather not have the definitions here.
Maalie - yes, I do believe there is absolute beauty and all that we see here on earth is simply a reflection, in some small way, of absolute beauty. Somehow it strikes me as rather like light hitting a prism (I love prisms) - which is the more beautiful - the total or the components - depends on the observer I would think.
My daughter and I often laught at my notion of being recycled. She was rather young when it just became the two of us -just 8. So we've had some rather strange conversations I'll wager. At some point I told her that I would prefer to be cremated and have my ashes either spread into a trout stream in my beloved Blue Ridge Mountains - or put in a flower bed. Now, that seems like a rather normal conversation to have with ones daughter - but when said daughter is 10 and laughingly threatening you if you get mean when you get old and says, "you'd better watch it mom - I might have to ash you" because she can't remember the word cremate, it can start many years of such joke!
Thank you Maalie for being so eloquent in your explanation! It is strange about words. Some words just sound 'ugly' and other words that in fact have quite offensive meanings sound quite pretty!
Simon - yes, overall, I did see myself as a needy person - a sinner needing a Savior.
However, that did not mean I lacked real relationships with people, nor do I now. I do not lack self-worth, not theologically or practically. Theologically, I was worth enough for a man to give his life for.
Practically, I think I have some understanding of my own ability to contribute to the greater good of all people. If I did not, I would not spend long days in the lab - or in front of a computer doing science (alas, mine has far less field work than Maalies!)
Certainly my friends would tell you that my worth is inestimable, for they love me dearly - as does my daughter.
So, you may not negate my life as one of smallness, emptiness or uselessness, for it is not. That does not mean that I am not looking forward to an even better life than I have now though - even though somedays I can't imagine how it will be better.
LtL - I am so obtuse that I do not know what Maalie is trying to say - so please email me.
And thank you Maalie, just in case there are those who are less obtuse than I, I will delete the comment until LtL explains it PRIVATELY to me.
Yes, I like prisms too, I was presented with one by the Faculty Dean when I took my early retirement. They have meant so much to me all my life, obviously through the optical equipment by which I watch my precious birds.
Yes, I agree that there may be an absolute beauty; an aesthetic appreciation is part of the property of being human. One of the anthropological definitions of the separation of MAN (Homo sp. from hominid precursors (probably Australopithecus afarenis aka "Lucy" - google her) is the human propensity for conceptual (rather than perceptual) thought. That gives rise to our cultures. And that can include watching 24 girls on a stage dressed in white and believing for a couple of hours that they really are swans.
Hey, did I ever tell you I flew from England to Columbus Ga in 1995 on the spur of the moment, just to see a ballerina that I met on the internet dancing as a swan? That was really runcible! You'd never believe the tangled web of stories I had to invent to explain why I was dashing off to USA mid-term. In the end I actually got a contribution towards expenses, it seems I was so convincing!!!
So you withdraw you comment that "beauty is only in the eye of the beholder"?
Maalie - what are you doing over on Bluecollar again? Are you antagonizing them just because you can? Please do not be such a runcible fellow for I might be inclined to call it sin to deliberately antagonize another, especially one so ill equipped to fight back!
I don't know Maalie if I will withdraw it or not - but I will think on it.
I do realize though that I did not properly thank you for the lovely compliment - at 54, it is not one I hear too often.
Now, I must get myself off to work, which means a 50 minute drive into the lab. Have a lovely day - I hope that you have more sunshine and higher temps than we do here in Chicago!
Sorry, I didn't quite finish. I meant to ask if you wanted to withdraw your comment that beauty is only in the eye of the beholder, and accept my personal value judgement that your own evident good looks might be more widely appreciated?
No I'm not purporting to antagonise them, honestly. But I am genuinely intrigued to know how these different factions of Christianity "think" and what it is that makes them spurn each other so much. It can often hinge on the interpretation of a single word. But as I hinted earlier somewhere, my quest is coming to a close and I am near to finding an outlet for making my own beliefs "respectable". But I don't want to bore you with all that.
You do not bore me Maalie - I am always interested in what you are thinking.
Yes. Martin Luther was tactless and in your face, and yet one of the greatest heroes of Christendom. Go figure. I only have the tactless part down so far but I'm working on the other.
I certainly do not want to be an antagonist or be insensitve to others feelings or maladies. But my point is sound. If we are going to lower our worth to that of equal value to bugs and trees, why would any one of you get offended? You are lowering humankind's dignity to that of bugs! That's my point. No one apologies to bugs. "Oh, I'm sorry little critter. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." No one does that, not even Buddha. If we are going to degrade ourselves by comparing ourselves to insects and say we are not any more important than they, logic and consistency dictate that human value is so low, mentioning maladies or any other thing really shouldn't be offensive. After all, we are no more important than bugs, right? Be consistent. What a degradation of human worth is coming out of your own mouths. How can such wise people believe such a foolish thing?
>If we are going to degrade ourselves by comparing ourselves to insects
Ltl Luther, Simon will be asleep in Australia now, but I will try to say what I believe he would think (we have been camping in the outback together, so I have a fair idea).
I think he meant that we compare ourselves to bugs in the transitory nature of our existence here; that we have no more "purpose" here than a bug, other then to be a temporary assemblage of biochemical organised by energy from the sun (via our food 0f course). There is no fundamental or absolute "meaning of life" either for a bug or us. That is not to say that we, as primate mammals, have not "progressed", through the process of natural selection, in terms of our upright stance, nervous system, sensory perception, intelligence, capacity for logic and reasoning etc., and of course our capacity to create a "culture".
If I may observe, I think you fit well into Simon's criterion that surely there MUST be something better.... Man's arrogance and conceit does not seem to be able to accept that you just die, your nutrients are recycled, and that's it. And therefore we invoke the supernatural, everlasting life through mythology, creation myths and the like. All cultures have them, Christian mythology is not alone.
I suggest you get on with life in a constructive way and do to others as you would have them do to you. Then you may lie on your death-bed and think: "My time on earth was so very short, but I made the best of it, set an example to others, I have organised my affairs and I leave no ill-will behind me".
In my own Pagan philosophy, THAT is going to heaven!
I'm sure Simon will comment if he disagrees with any of this.
Luther. How do you know what the Buddha would or would not do? Have you ever studied Buddhism or read the writings of the Dalai Lama? If you had, you wouldn't make such ridiculous assumptions. Don't you understand that Buddhists believe in reincarnation? Do you understand their philosophy of reincarnation? Do you understand why certain sects of Buddhists sweep gently before them lest they tread on a ant? Do you have no respect for all living creatures?
(grin) well it sure got the debate going:- nice christian commentary luther!
You re 100% correct re "us" here for a short time and then we return to dust. Sounds fantastic to me, because thats all we are- no more significant than a blade of grass or dust.
Why go on living? because life is wonderful, because everyday is exciting, with new things to see, songs to sing friends to visit.
This word is a wonderful place with its textures plants and animals..
I choose to enjoy every minute of every moment precisely because there is nothing afterwards.
And why would I want to be remembered when I am gone? I am not a god or an egoist!
The less footprint of me the better!
This earth is all we have, there is nothing better than this. The sooner you wake up and realise that we are all rowing in this "boat" together the better you will be and the better the rest of us will be.
Don't just waffle on.. do something to change your mind set...
Fantastic reactions from you all! ;o)
ps- Luther I do have a blood disorder that gives me arthritis, plus a whole host of other problems ( shortened life expectancy is just one of them..) you know what? I have NEVER been more alive than now..
I have NO problem with this at all, no fear, nothing. I enjoy more of what I have left precisely because I have it.
Do I know where I ma going? yes 100% 6 feet under- returned to carbon, and the whole biological process will continue....
Simon,
As a new member to this blog, I had no idea whether you had more problems with back pain than me in the morning. So please forgive me. I just assumed (since all people are at one stage of decay or another in our bodies) that everyone on the blog has some issue or another. But I did not know anything about yours....but who knows? Maybe God ordained me to talk of maladies?
Lorenzothellama,
I have lived among Tibetan Buddhists for close to 12 years straight now in Nepal. I've played Snooker with Tibetan monks on a number of occasions, ate steak with them(!) and sat in steam rooms together and had cocktails together poolside at an exclusive club. Even in Thailand I’ve watched in the wee hours of the morning as Buddhists prostitutes who have been busy all nights on their backs give some of the money to monks (like to a pimp) and then he does an incantation over them and sends them on their way. Don't think for a minute that Buddhists are less hypocritical than any of the rest of us!
I am American, but my wife is Nepalese born. We built our own house here in Kathmandu, have adopted a little girl, etc (any clue as to what my occupation must be?). So my roots are deep in this Hindu and Buddhist place. Half my wife's family is Buddhist. I've taught classes on Buddhism and Hinduism on a few occasions. I’ve written the only treatment that I know of in existence on the Nepalese caste system (which is different than that found in India). BTW: Most of the Buddhists of Nepal, and even Tibetan refugees, eat meat and have adopted many of the not-so-appealing aspects of Nepal’s caste system. I know all about reincarnation. I've listened firsthand to all the theories from those that actually believe and practice it. And I suppose because of being married into this culture, my language skills are unsurpassed by anyone who has been here less than 20 years. That is just to say, I have understood clearly what they believe and have heard it firsthand.
I've been to Buddha's birth place. I've spent a lot of time in northwest India as well. I’ve been to all the major Buddhist hotspots, including where the Dalai Lama lays his head at night. So yes, at the risk of sounding prideful again. I have knowledge of Buddhism you could only dream of acquiring and will never learn by books in Britain. I've studied all the major religions and can teach on them. I spent a year in Pakistan in 1996 as well and have a good grasp of Islam too. And I am persuaded that there is no Savior but Jesus Christ. Krishna is dead; Buddha is dead, the false prophet Mohammad is dead but Jesus is alive, and it is He who invaded my life and radically sent it in a new direction.
NOW getting great thinking and debate..
Thanks Loenzo and Maalie.. and thank you Luther and Susan.
Enjoy Chicago....
Its 32c in Sydney I have never sen such a beautiful blue sky, or blue ocean and the whitest sand on Manly beach...!
Its getting hot in the furnace..:o)
or should I say cool? ;o)
Maalie,
You say "There seems to be no coherent position on what the bible means"--that there is no consistent interpretation of the Bible, and in some ways you are right. There is a lot of freedom and personal application on non-essentials. Nevertheless, there is complete agreement on several major issues. Look at the various Christian groups: Catholics and Protestants; Calvinists and Arminians; Pentecostals, Fundamentalists, Orthodox, Messianic Jews, etc., and you will find that they all agree that the whole human race is plunged into sin and that there is no salvation outside of Jesus Christ. There are several other issues of agreement we could look at as well, but I wish to focus on this one. If you are looking for biblical interpretive agreement in Christianity, you’ve found it with our universal belief in the Person and work of Jesus Christ and that without Him there is no hope for humankind.
Ohhh Simon - you are wicked to taunt me with your lovely weather; I do so hate cold. Even Maalie and Lorenzo have nicer weather for the spring than we are having here in Chicago!
But, the sun is shining and it may get above freezing today!! Hooray!!
Does it get cold in the winter where you are? Somewhere in Australia if I remember correctly? I have colleagues down under. They taught me about budgie smugglers this summer when we were at a meeting together in Mexico. I laughed until I had tears rolling down my eyes!
lLuter - I had a feeling you were deeply embedded in another culture there. Perhaps you will put some pictures up for us on your blog as I am afraid it is a place that I will never get to see.
Luther- My point is- the bible was written by middle eastern story tellers, as was the Muslim version and the jewish old testament, not to forget Buddaha etc - it is no more relevant to me than you quoting from books such as Lord of the rings, Star Wars, Harry Potter....or any other bit of fiction with a flurry of fact thrown in...
Sadly too many men have fought, or continue to fight over it. I say again- "By their actions you will know them" I have never met one, not one.....
Its words are twisted to suit those who read an interpret and act... usually with a rotten result.
So you argument is utterly baseless.... Sorry..
Do you feel better for "knowing" him? if you do GREAT! But if there is some doubt - don't live the lie....
Anyway- be cool!
Susan:- Budgie smugglers! Oh yes every Aussie man has a pair! ahahahahahaahahahahah
The weather here today is UTTERLY perfect
we do have one or two days of unpleasant coldness but that is rare..
there are 2 seasons in Australia- wet or dry...
:o)
Last night we rescued a pink tongued Skink. I got to thinking about the Lords creation, and that how he even made bugs, and just if we really valued His creation we would not have global warming.....
!!!! OOOPPPSSSS canI say that here??
Okay Susan. At your request I uploaded a few pics of Nepal at my blog. Enjoy!
Everyone, please feel welcome to stop on by.
Happy Sunday Halfmom! Miserable damp grey day here in England. I must try to get bout to make some observations though.
>Last night we rescued a pink tongued Skink
Ahhh, smush-smush Simon ;-)
I'm off to catch some birds now to shackle them with leg-irons.
Simon, sure I feel a lot better for knowing Him, but feelings really have nothing to do with why one becomes a follower of Christ. I hope that even if I were forcibly tied to a stake and had to feel flames licking at my heels, and that the only thing which would relieve me of the torturous feeling of being burned alive was to deny Christ, that I would gladly endure the agony. Having known Him (or more importantly, being known by Him) makes how I feel inconsequential.
I can tell you honestly I really have no doubts about Jesus Christ. I doubt my own ability to live a godly life. I doubt many things about my own character. But I have no doubts about who He is, or that He is indeed alive and the one King whom every human being will bow before. I don't have the slightest doubt about Him! I'm telling you the truth, without exaggeration. But I didn’t always feel this way. There was a time when I thought preachers and the like that lived their lives for Christ were fools and wasting their lives. But over the last 18 years since He came into my life, now for me to live is Christ. He is my life and reason for living.
Happy Sunday Maalie - here it dawns with bright sun and temperatures OVER freezing - at least for today - I heard more snow tonight.
Simon - poor Aussie men - budgie smugglers are so unattractive - somethings are better left to the imagination!
And Simon - of course you can say that here - for it is exactly what I would say and I am so very glad that you care about and for creation.
Luther - thanks - I'll be over later in my day to look at your pictures! Thanks for the theology lesson too - I have to think on that a bit before I comment more.
Lorenzo my love - an email to you soon, I promise - Ted has sent me some wonderful things on prayer for a situation I was dealing with so I need to move them from one email to the other (uh oh - technical difficulties anyone?) so I can forward them to you. They were most encouraging!
Most blessed Sabbath - to all wherever.
Halfmom, so you're in Chicago? I wonder if you know the man who shovelled snow for an hour to clear a space for his car during a blizzard in Chicago and returned with his vehicle to find a woman had taken the space. Understandably, he shot her.
Yes, Maalie, I live in the suburbs of Chicago and work at a medical school on the west side of the city.
Parking spaces are at a premium - and my goodness we've had a lot of snow!
If only we could be as considerate as blades of grass and dust when searching for a parking place.
How should one respond to the passionate, learned, and persuasive books that promote science and secularism over religion and faith? For years, Tim Keller has compiled a list of the most frequently voiced “doubts” skeptics bring to his Manhattan church. And in "The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism" he single-handedly dismantles each of them. It is written with atheists, agnostics, and skeptics in mind.
What a perfect book for this blog! The hardcover is $14.97 at Amazon. Anyone up to the challenge?
and persuasive books that promote science and secularism over religion and faith?
Science doesn't purport to promote itself "OVER" anything! LOL! Science is independent and seeks to explain things in terms of evidence. For a hugely growing number of people the evidence is all too plain. People like yourself (with respect) have already decided what they are going to believe and so seek to discredit the evidence and pretend it doesn't exists. Fundamentalist Parents will even go to the lengths of homeschooling in order to prevent their cherubs from being "tainted" with real evidence.
I can see this post going on for another 100 comments unless Halfmom gnips it in the bud! You make me laugh!
Good. I'm glad I brought a smile to your face and laughter. That's better than the alternative, I would think.
It is funny, though, how so often people of 'science' are unwilling to consider the alternative arguments. It is like schools now a day being afraid to allow creationism in the classroom along side evolution. Clearly it takes much more 'faith' to believe that the profound intricacies found in nature and in our human DNA somehow appeared out of nothing than it does to believe in God. That something came from nothing without a creator truly is incredible. Such scientifically un-testable, blind faith should not only be ridiculed but probably to some extent even be admired.
Maalie,
Many interesting thoughts from you here on this post. I'd be interested in your take on this, and notice that the first link is from Bishop Tom Wright right from your country (of Durham, I think).
I have just been witnessing the converation here, as I know Halfmon Susan is a scientist herself, so I just enjoy hearing the back and forth between scientists, even if alot is in fun, in reasoning about this.
>people of 'science' are unwilling to consider the alternative arguments
That simply isn't true. That is one of those pointless statements trotted out each time by the creationists. Many (probably most) scientists have at some time in their lives "believed" in Noah's Ark and the other stories, as they have believed in the tooth fairy and Santa. As evidence and experience develops they reject the supernatural in favour of evidence-based explanations. It is of course the fundamentalists who won't consider the evidence. Due to brainwashing, indoctrination, or maybe the reasons suggested by Simon, they choose to "believe" because they want to and stay blind to evidence and experience. There are none so blind as those who won't see!
Ted, thanks for the link, I have read it. The problem for me is that it regards the bible as being the one true authentic statement on the origin and development of life on earth. Since is is now known as a certain fact that it did not happen like that (there was no mass migration of pairs of two million animal species from all corners of the globe to the middle east so be saved from drowning) it does not conform with the experience and knowledge of the evidence of me and millions of scientists around the world.
Scientists will continue to be vilified by creationists, as Galileo and the great Charles Darwin when he published The Origin of Species
>That something came from nothing without a creator truly is incredible
You are arguing from personal incredulity, Luther, not from logic, reasoning or evidence. And personal incredulity is no argument at all. Maybe there has always been a time-energy-matter continuum, cosmology is still in its infancy. They used to believe the earth was flat once, you know! LOL!
I don't know why you keep going on about the supernatural Maalie. You have obviously never stayed in this house when our ghost has been on the warpath. So many weird things have happened, even Wren has had experience of it, and you can't get much more scientific than her!
The cats and dogs have gone ape at time, and Scaredy spends ages sometimes just following something about with his eyes, that we can't see.
I don't think Ghostie is malevolent, just a bit naughty at times.
A runcible ghost, eh?
Halfmom, I noticed that you deleted my definitions of dude and jerk! Well, I was just being runcible, I made up all those ***g***k etc.! I was just being runcible!
I think those words are a bit more derogatory in England than they would be in the Big Apple. A dude would be someone who is a bit pretentious. So you might see someone in a birdwatching hide with all the fancy clothes, most expensive optics, stories about where he had been and what he had seen. But the moment something unusual comes into view, he calls the wrong species! Others nearby might be heard to mutter under their breath "What a dude!"
A jerk could be somebody who is a bit ignorant and/or rude.
How is this for science? I've heard that the creation of a quantum computer is underway, which they believe will be able to compute at a rate physicists deem impossible 'unless' there is another dimension of which we are unaware. Could it be that science will eventually discover the spiritual realm that we Christians have always claimed exists?
LOL! Who knows. There is clearly a great deal about the nervous system and brain function that we do not yet understand. But then we didn't understand immunology a hundred years ago, or the structure of DNA 50 years ago (gosh, it was published when I was a student). Give it time, give it time...
Yes, Maalie - I deleted it - you pulled the wool over my eyes quite well with that one - I looked for several minutes and couldn't figure out any profanity that would fit but just in case someone else could, I deleted it - only to receive an email from Jill telling me what you'd been up too - you are very naughty!
I have a feeling that the words have a slightly worse connotation than you define here as Jill opted for not explaining them to me. Suffice it to say that I will try to remember never to use them with any Brits.
LitLuther - you do realize you're arguing creation with a man/men that don't believe in the existance of God, right?
Halfmom, I try not to use the word "believe" - it smacks too much of the Tooth Fairy and Santa. Belief (or disbelief) has absolutely no bearing on whether something is true or false. If the Calvinists and Arminians believe slightly different things, then one of them, at least, is wrong.
I don't believe, I experience. And my experience, which includes the evidence that I have perceived for myself and witnessed through the peer-reviewed scientific literature, does not persuade me of the existence of an almighty omniscient heavenly father. There are more parsimonious explanations for our observations of life on earth that do not depend on such an entity.
Of course one can never absolutely eliminate the possibility of a God. However, if indeed there is a God who made things the way they are simply because he had the power to do so, then all I can say is that he/she is an extremely perverse God!
susan- I read your comment on Lorenzo's blog. Not sure why, but i feel the need to encourage you.
:o)
Susan,
I suppose you were referring to my comment on the quantum computer? Sure, I imagine its designer and physicists deny the existence of God. Further, I imagine if an unseen dimension is proved by science to exist, they will still no doubt given an explanation which leaves God out. But evidences likes these are not uncommon. God's fingerprints can be seen in the universe, in a new human life entering the world, even in the Scriptures, etc. But God in His wisdom has designed everything so that if one wishes to disbelieve in Him, He allows enough supposed 'evidence' or ‘discrepancies’ for them to do so. Not once does any text of Scripture attempt to prove God’s existence. His existence is simply assumed because creation in itself proves sufficient. I don’t feel the slightest need to ‘prove’ God’s existence to anyone since He never set out to do so in Scripture. I will merely confess along with King David: “The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’” (Ps. 14:1)
> He allows enough supposed 'evidence' or ‘discrepancies’ for them to do so
LOL! That's partly what I mean by God being perverse!
>Not once does any text of Scripture attempt to prove God’s existence
Of course not. D0n't be such a dude. You can't ever prove the supernatural. Even if the bible did attempt to prove it, it would not be proof, it would only be an unverifiable account by the writing of a man.
Of course God cannot be disproved either. But what can be said is that evidence gained from observations of the world we live in makes it so unlikely as to be not in the frame for rational consideration.
Maalie, your statement, "But what can be said is that evidence gained from observations of the world we live in makes it so unlikely as to be not in the frame for rational consideration." You can not be further from the truth. God is clear in all creation. Put down your defenses and take a step of faith and look in faith. The beauty, the order, the massiveness. All of this could not "just happen". Order from chaos is not in the frame for rational consideration.
Simon - my Happy Valentine's Day comment to Lorenzo - is that the one you mean? Whatever one you mean, it is quite kind of you to offer encouragement. Thanks!
LLuther - I meant talking about creation versus evolution - seems rather fruitless if one member in the discussion doesn't believe a creator exists.
Maalie - don't you Dude anyone - and I'm becoming peevish with all you LOL - so stop it. Believe it or not, we're quite bright enough to hear your derision without the necessity of having it pointed out to us.
Anonymous,
Thanks for the thoughtful input. There is much wisdom in your words. You should make yourself known.
>Order from chaos is not in the frame for rational consideration
Of course it is! If there is a supply of energy (at at the moment there is plenty left in the sun).
Have you not seen a crystal grow from molecules of solute in random (chaotic) solution? Or a plant grow from random molecules of carbon dioxide, water vapour and mineral elements? Or a couple of strands of DNA united to grow into a person?
Structure emerging from randomness can be seen all around us and it does NOT require the intervention of the supernatural. It requires a supply of energy. It's as easy as that!
In my reading today I came across this interesting quote by Henry Thiessen:
"Science, with its belief in the indestructibility of matter and the conservation of energy, cannot say that the Christian belief is unreasonable; and philosophy, with its recognition of the inequalities of life, cannot well avoid postulating a life after death, when the wrongs of this life will be righted. This possibility and necessity is converted into certainty in the Scriptures."
Henry Clarence Thiessen? Oh HIM!! Of course his publisher is Eerdmans of Grand Rapids Mi. He would say that wouldn't he? I know all about them, they are one of those publishers I referred to above who make their money out exploiting deluded people like those Simon referred to above!
I've been away from this blog for a couple of days. Just said goodbye to Joe and Kerry off on their way around the world. Great fun for them, but very sad for me!
You tell Maalie off when you need to Susan! And Maalie, don't go duding anyone. It doesn't mean what you think it means either. Joe told me the real meaning and it's horrible.
I think I might be your 100th comment!
Love Lorenzo.
To maalie,
I am not a scientist, but I do see order and not randomness in plants and the DNA strands that grow to be a person. I see order in the fact that my landscaping right now is dry and dead, thorns and branches. In another several weeks they will turn green with buds. Then they will flower. Then in Fall they will turn brilliant shades of color. I do not see randomness in that. My rose bush always produces a rose, even though now it seems to be dead. My burning bush (not it's technical name, I can't recall that right now) is a bunch of sticks in the ground right now, covered in snow and ice. It will bud, in Fall it will turn the most brilliant shade of red. I am guaranteed that because of order and not chaos. The pregnant woman I know will have a human child and not a goat, or some random being. Order, not chaos, that doesn't "just happen". There is Someone who created the order.
>The pregnant woman I know will have a human child and not a goat, or some random being.
May I respectfully suggest that you learn something about the genetic code and how it is transmitted?
It seems to me you are arguing from personal incredulity, not knowledge and understanding.
Is that all you have, maalie?
To the one without the conviction to leave a name: All I have got? LOL! You are nearly as funny as mini-Luther!
Susan knows who I am, that's all that matters.
So, is that all you've got?
You are quite funny yourself.
Ha ha! I think 30 odd years of lecturing in biochemistry, ecology and anthropology is enough for my own personal conviction!
In my opinion, the most dangerous fundamentalists are those who argue: "I'm not a scientist, but..."
It means they are making decisions and setting policies out of ignorance and under delusion.
You do like to insult people don't you? Very interesting. Funny too!
Anon:- "someone created it.."
What I find difficult, (and found difficult as a leader in a church) was all this "emotional" speak..
Stuff like:- " when I woke up this morning the lord showed me his sunrise in all its glory to light my path for the day ahead. I gave thanks for his creation praise be to god. and in this sunrise i know him and his creation...."
or
" the lord spoke to me last night in answer to a prayer and he told me i should tell 'Anon" that they should repent"...
What have I actually said?
Absolutley nothing!- its emotional drivel.
Maalie has not insulted anyone here, in fact, he is the most rational and balanced.
There has not really been one sensible piece of evidence that has been here in arguement against his point of view.
just emotional clap-trap.
I am not trying to insult you either.
>the lord spoke to me last night in answer to a prayer and he told me......
That we should go to war...
Simon, you and maalie do come across as insulting and arrogant and bitter. Susan has been incredibly gracious here with both of you. Maalie has called me ignorant, delusional, not having knowledge and understanding, his education does not impress me nor does the fact that you were once a church leader. You both seem bitter, which says a lot. Why do the two of you continue to dialogue here? Someone else suggested possibly for argument sake. Do you like to argue?
Because you "feel" it is emotional drivel does that make it true for all? It is pretty arrogant of you to assume all have the same experience as you.
Maalie, because I am not a scientist that dismisses anything I have to say as without knowledge and understanding? You are a funny man aren't you? It must be nice to have such knowledge and understanding, did that come with your education or did you have to pay extra?
Alright - you have all had your fun while I was away writing, analyzing data, writing, analyzing data and writing some more - but my poster presentation is now done for the meeting and I am back.....
so you'd better ALL behave - Believers and nonbelievers alike!
There will be no more laughing at each other - if you're not respectful, I will put comment enabling on and "dis"enable your antagonistic back biting -
So, please behave as though you were not raised in the wild. You're all quite capable of knowing what words are insulting and derogatory - so please quit using them.
Lets see if you can "play well with others", a skill I would have hoped you picked up back in kindergarden.
"The pregnant woman I know will have a human child and not a goat." :)
I like your humor, Anonymous, whoever you are!
BTW: My wife is 5 months pregnant. I am certainly glad we are not going to have a bouncing baby goat!
Simon,
Believe it or not there are things with which I truly agree with you. I for one don't like much of the emotional stuff either. If someone comes to me with "The Lord told me this for you..." I find it difficult not to treat the comments with destain-- though I try to be gracious. Moreover, emotions and feelings really have nothing to do with faith. Nevertheless, I do believe God has much to say to me and to this world and it is contained in a book and in a Person both of which I treasure and which you appear to destain. I only point out the about because, perhaps, there will not be another point on which we find agreement.
Luther:- :o)
Anon:- bless you.
>because I am not a scientist that dismisses anything I have to say as without knowledge and understanding?
Now, with due respect to you and Halfmom, I did not say, or imply, that (or least did not mean to). I would infer however that it does give you somewhat limited scope to enter into discussions about scientific matters, such as those you have dabbled in. It is perfectly fair of me to point out that you are then arguing from personal incredulity, not knowledge or understanding.
It is true that I often hear people say something like "I don't know any science, but..." and still make far-reaching (and often nonsensical) assertions on the basis of that.
I think that is the problem in discussion like this. Scientists usually have an appreciation of the bible AND of science which may allow them (as Simon puts it) a more balanced approach to the discussion and allows them to put real evidence on the other balance pan of the scales.
This does not make non-scientists any more dumb (I have been accused of implying that, but not by you I hasten to add). What it means (or may mean) is that at some point in life they made a choice of not pursuing science in their education and in my opinion it puts them at a disadvantage if they try to engage in discussions which involve science. They have to resort to faith in an un-critical way.
My own intensive fieldwork season investigating the evolutionary adaptations in a population of birds starts on March 1st and so, much to Halfmom's relief, I'm sure, I will be a far less frequent visitor this this, and other, blogs.
'Scientists usually have an appreciation of the bible'
Now you are making me laugh out loud. The only 'scientist' on this blog that I am aware of who has a genuine 'appreciation' of the Bible is Halfmom! It seems unnecessary to list all the belittling comments that you and others have made about the Bible on this blog to prove my point.
Thats just not true Luther. One the the most eminent scientists who ever lived, namely Stephen Hawkins, knows the Bible inside out.
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